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Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#111

Post by acchow »

BluSyn wrote: post #25
darth_avocado wrote: post #6

Tesla advertises 350+ miles on its cars. I’d bet money that the cars can’t do 300 in normal weather, normal driving conditions without the AC/heater on, on a straight road with no elevation gain. These are the things they blame when they say EPA estimates are different becase blah blah… (I own a Tesla)

How can Tesla advertise a “more accurate” number if they are required by regulation to use EPA estimate? EPA range estimates being inaccurate is a real problem. They do not, and are not designed to, give actual expected range. It’s meant to be an “average” of “mixed” driving. Take latest Model Y as example. If you compare EPA range vs WLTP (commonly used in EU) 327mi EPA est. (526km) US version (long range) / 586km W…

> EPA range estimates being inaccurate is a real problem. They do not, and are not designed to, give actual expected range. It’s meant to be an “average” of “mixed” driving.

Also, EPA ranges expect mostly constant speed and driving within the speed limit, neither of which matches real world driving

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#113

Post by cwillu »

elif wrote: post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

I have an old toyota camry hybrid. The estimated range is calculated based on the trip mpg, and as such is accurate when I'm going like a speed demon or cruising along at 90kph.

Displaying a marketing number on the dash is inexcusable, regardless of how fast or slow drivers are going.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#114

Post by cwillu »

486sx33 wrote: post #52
darth_avocado wrote: post #6

Tesla advertises 350+ miles on its cars. I’d bet money that the cars can’t do 300 in normal weather, normal driving conditions without the AC/heater on, on a straight road with no elevation gain. These are the things they blame when they say EPA estimates are different becase blah blah… (I own a Tesla)

No different than fuel range numbers (fuel tank capacity x mpg) for ICE vehicles. They are under perfect conditions in a lab with no accessories. It might not be realistic but it’s absolutely the best way to compare it to other vehicles.

On any ICE I've ever driven, the range number displayed on the dash is calculated from the current trip's average mpg.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#115

Post by numpad0 »

rockinghigh wrote: post #18
sashank_1509 wrote: post #10

I have a model 3 (from 2023), that is rated 270 miles. I can get at max 120 miles, more like 90 miles from it. My drive to work involves going steeply uphill, not very cold. The only reason I don’t care is I have free office charging. If I didn’t I would be pissed by the range I observe. Also Tesla servicing is famously bad, and the way the employees treat service requests (as described in the article) explains a lot

Getting only 30% of the advertised range would be very unlikely unless you always drive uphill and in the cold. I've had a Model 3 and a Model Y, and would get at least 80-85% of the advertised range in average California weather.

GP wouldn't notice effects of uphill and downhill averaging out if he starts at the bottom and charges at the top. And GP is implying he do.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#116

Post by SkyPuncher »

elif wrote: post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

When you understand how the EPA actually test this, it makes sense. "Highway" isn't anything like what most people think it is. It's not cruising at 75mph with no traffic on a major interstate. It's more like busy country road driving.

> The "highway" program, on the other hand, is created to emulate rural and interstate freeway driving with a warmed-up engine, making no stops (both of which ensure maximum fuel economy). The vehicle is driven for 10 miles over a period of 12.5 minutes with an average speed of 48 mph and a top speed of 60 mph

Further, the force of drag grows exponentially with speed. Going 75mph on the interstate is massively less fuel efficient than 48mph.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-economy/...

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#117

Post by lnsru »

I have found Volkswagen’s range estimator and I think it’s trustworthy: https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/charging... I think, the range from here could be estimated for similar Tesla models too.

The fact is that WLTP is useless. I can do 2/3 WLTP range in summer and 1/3 WLTP range in winter on highway with long range Model Y. That’s bad joke. Luckily I drive long distances extremely seldom. Crawling at 60 mph all the time is not an option for me.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#118

Post by rrr_oh_man »

lnsru wrote: post #117

I have found Volkswagen’s range estimator and I think it’s trustworthy: https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/charging... I think, the range from here could be estimated for similar Tesla models too. The fact is that WLTP is useless. I can do 2/3 WLTP range in summer and 1/3 WLTP range in winter on highway with long range Model Y. That’s bad joke. Luckily I drive long distances extremely seldom. Crawlin…

> Use our useful tool to get an estimated range based on factors such as your driving style, battery size and Volkswagen electric vehicle model.

That’s such a VW sentence.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#119

Post by AtlasBarfed »

starspangled wrote: post #106
sashank_1509 wrote: post #10

I have a model 3 (from 2023), that is rated 270 miles. I can get at max 120 miles, more like 90 miles from it. My drive to work involves going steeply uphill, not very cold. The only reason I don’t care is I have free office charging. If I didn’t I would be pissed by the range I observe. Also Tesla servicing is famously bad, and the way the employees treat service requests (as described in the article) explains a lot

> I have a model 3 (from 2023), that is rated 270 miles. I can get at max 120 miles, more like 90 miles from it. My drive to work involves going steeply uphill, not very cold. The only reason I don’t care is I have free office charging. If I didn’t I would be pissed by the range I observe. Were you mislead about or unaware of the range claims when you bought the car? I don't own an EV or have any real interest in the…

The 270 actually 120 is a bit dramatic, but it does highlight a lot of the fundamental problems with range in EVs, especially the "200 miles is enough" crowd.

1) for battery preservation, you generally do not fully charge every night. So, lose 10% from that

2) battery degradation, things are better, but 10% max loss is common I would say

3) people drive faster than testing. Knock off about 10% for that

4) cold? hot? AC? heat? another 10% off

5) there isn't a charger around every corner, so you have to plan ahead and to be safe get a charger when you're at like ... 10% left

Holy crap, 50% loss of range! And if you are in a scenario where you are recharging on the road, you are doing the "80% charge" which really is a loss of 10-20% more effective range. Ok, the poster isn't being that dramatic.

This is why for non-city non-commuter scenarios, especially in midwest/rural areas, a PHEV with a 50 mile all-electric range would simnply be a far better car, for far less battery supply. Daily city driving rarely exceeds 50%, the engine can do range extension on the rare long distance trips, and it can also help with heat/cooling that heat pumps can't help with. PHEV drivetrains will still have regen, peppy acceleration, and good torque if done correctly.

I'm hoping the Dodge Ramcharger does really well. 100 miles almost in all-electric, and an engine to recharge it for really long ranges and towing capacity.

A truly peer range EV will probably need another 50% density, so

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#120

Post by peterisza »

sashank_1509 wrote: post #10

I have a model 3 (from 2023), that is rated 270 miles. I can get at max 120 miles, more like 90 miles from it. My drive to work involves going steeply uphill, not very cold. The only reason I don’t care is I have free office charging. If I didn’t I would be pissed by the range I observe. Also Tesla servicing is famously bad, and the way the employees treat service requests (as described in the article) explains a lot

Sorry, but this is hard to believe unless your specific Model 3 has a problem.

I have a Model Y, several friends have Teslas, one uses his Model 3 for Uber. Everyone can get the expected range when doing 90 km/h in the summer, and at least half of the range on the highway in the winter, but usually more than that.

Maybe your consumption is that much when going steeply uphill, but then you will have to come back down and your consumption will be negative as it will recharge your battery.

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