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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#761

Post by Chance-Device »

perlgeek wrote: post #759
Chance-Device wrote: post #286

I think I’ll use this thread to make a prediction. At the end of Trump’s term: - Europe will still be using F-16s and F-35s - The US will still be in NATO, and will still be actively committed to the alliance - European defense spending will be massively higher, with manufacturing and supply chains that are far less easily disrupted - The US forces deployed to Europe will still be there, but will be bolstered by more…

> - Whatever the outcome in Ukraine, suddenly, nobody will care. The media won’t talk about it, people will have largely forgotten, and some other controversy or distraction will be the story of the day. I'm sure the Ukrainians will care, and most of us in Europe will too.

I certainly agree that the Ukrainians will care about it very much, but you, unless you are in an Eastern European country, most likely will not.

The reason that you care right now is because it is in US interests that you care. As soon as that changes, you won’t. You’ll be too busy caring about something else.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#762

Post by user3939382 »

bbqfog wrote: post #706
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

It’s in my personal interest to not spread war and weapons throughout the world. We should cut off all weapons exports.

[flagged]

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#763

Post by nosianu »

tw2347288 wrote: post #114

I'm glad that this discussion finally takes place, even though the discussion is of course flagged. You can flag here, but the mainstream press has picked up the issue: "Can the US switch off Europe’s weapons?" https://www.ft.com/content/1503a69e-13e4-4ee8-9d05-b9ce1f7cc... "Such is the concern that debate has turned to whether the US maintains secret so-called kill switches that would immobilise aircraft and weapons…

I just read here a few days ago how very dependent on regular US maintenance the British nuclear weapons are.

"US support to maintain UK's nuclear arsenal is in doubt (theguardian.com)"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43299011

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#764

Post by user3939382 »

lucasyvas wrote: post #315

I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…

[flagged]

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#765

Post by user3939382 »

ssssvd wrote: post #593
RandyOrion wrote: post #161

When totalitarian governments all start applauding what you're doing, using what you're doing as a distraction from a bad domestic situation as well as a justification for their dictatorships, you should know that something is totally screwed up. Yes, I'm talking about the totalitarian governments of China and Russia.

[flagged]

These same people invoking the concept of totalitarianism to push their agenda are totally silent on the US allying with Al Queda in Syria. The concept that we have moral standards for foreign policy friends or enemies is a joke.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#766

Post by throw__away7391 »

addicted wrote: post #578
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

How can any reasonable national leader justify building their military on American systems anymore? Especially now that the U.S. government is also talking about not living up to its NATO obligations. This is not gonna hurt the rest of the world. Defense is where the U.S. exports a lot. So cutting back on U.S. weaponry will only help other nations. The same is true of Tech. Currently the tech industry is global, but…

I think the administration is gambling on being able to consolidate global power before anyone is going to have a chance to build anything. Europe is completely reliant on the US and US technology for defense right now, these systems took decades and trillions of dollars to build and refine, and an 800 billion EUR investment does not magically create a military industrial complex overnight. Decades ago in my early career I briefly worked on some logistics software for the Joint Strike Fighter project and had some contact with a couple of the army of contractors working on the project. The scale and complexity of this effort blows away anything else I've ever seen in my career, which includes a number of multi-billion dollar infrastructure and nuclear power projects.

Trump talks about invading Canada or Greenland and people act like it is a joke. I don't think it is.

The US is in a position to completely dictate to Europe what they will or won't do, using Russia as a proxy for now. We are 48 days in. A couple of weeks ago I replied to someone suggesting the US could provide weapons to Russia with disbelief. I no longer consider that an impossible scenario. Europe stops buying F35s? Trump tells Europe that if they don't buy them he's going to sell them to Russia. I mean that's a relatively tame response compared to the options on the table.

Right now the only chance for Europe is to stop this madness in the US. We have this "take it down" act, the executive order to produce a report advising whether or not to declare martial law, the January 6th pardon of the Proud Boys who are now effectively a paramilitary force of thousands waiting for Trump to deploy. These are all familiar elements in history and I think we are in for a bloody, bloody summer. I think we're going to see government forces opening fire on protesters, martial law declared, and the implementation of Chinese style suppression and crackdown on dissent online. Maybe attempts to strip US citizens of their citizenship and "deport" them for good measure, anything to try to sow fear into average people to not step out of line. If the administration is successful in quashing the opposition and getting everyone to go back to work, Europe could easily next on the chopping block. Remember all the things Bannon said about the EU during the first administration.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#767

Post by bongodongobob »

dtquad wrote: post #554
epistasis wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. Nope, turns out that the American Empire is being dismantled by something else entirely. A subset of the populace that feels jealous of those with more and scared of social change, reacting to try to hurt their fellow country men? A megalomaniac leader who is som…

>I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. Most leftist political parties in Scandinavia and the Baltics manages to be be both pro-Palestine, pro-NATO, and pro-Ukraine. They don't seen any contradiction because there aren't any. Why do some American leftists follow this 3rd worldist neo-Maoist thinking t…

Probably because 2/3 of the population can't be reached. They either want to do whatever they can to be anti-left, even if it hurts themselves, or they don't care at all. So voting harder isn't going to work. All while education is being gutted. I honestly don't know what other options are left. Maybe turning states into their own countries and let them raw dog the world without any help from the federal govt. Idk, it's bleak.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#768

Post by keybored »

jacquesm wrote: post #610
ssssvd wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How aboutism, is that a variation on whataboutism?

Whataboutism is a legitimate rhetorical tactic. Without it we would just be exploring hegemonic (and hypocritical) talking points, forever.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#769

Post by 4ndrewl »

9283409232 wrote: post #245
epistasis wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to China, even they are "appalled" by what Trump is doing to cause chaos with Europe and to abandon Ukraine by holding talks about Ukraine without Ukraine: https://news.liga.net/en/politics/news/china-appalled-by-tru...

China isn't actually appalled but they are trying to slip into America's spot in the world and they will likely do so successfully.

They say they're appalled so as to be able to take up opportunities left by the fleeing Americans in Europe.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#770

Post by everybodyknows »

jisnsm wrote: post #200
wyldfire wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The agenda that Trump advanced during campaigns was not "cut ourselves off from the rest of the world". Do his supporters really want this? What's the rationale he advances for this stance and the tarrifs? What would a president who was beholden to Russians do once elected? I mean -- what's the point of provoking Canada, of all countries? Canada as the 51st US state would be the new most populous state and would caus…

The agenda was to leave Ukraine and to have Europe pay for its own defence which is what’s happening here. Nothing more, nothing less. Don’t let yourself get manipulated by Reddit-tier arguments.

> leave Ukraine

The United States was never "in Ukraine" in at all the same way it was in Iraq or Afghanistan. There were never American combat boots on the ground.

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