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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#281

Post by jebarker »

maxlin wrote: post #237
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

[flagged]

> newly invented security guarantees

This just isn't true. He had been publicly stating that there needed to be security guarantees for weeks before the meeting. Also, perhaps if Ukraine had been involved in the prior "peace talks" he would have had an opportunity to state this directly to the US administration.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#282

Post by inglor_cz »

lolinder wrote: post #258
samcheng wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best explanation I've heard is that this (almost) half of the US population doesn't care if it hurts a bit, as long as it hurts the other half of the US population more.

No, that's not it. I'm writing this from rural America in deep Trump territory, and people here are already struggling and have been for years. From their perspective they've been left out of the benefits of the global economy—the big cities and the coasts might be better off, but the middle of the country wants to go back to when they had opportunities and jobs for working class Americans. They're almost certainly w…

This is happening in other countries as well. It is often the internal periphery (former GDR, rural France etc., poorer parts of the EU) that votes for anti-system parties out of bitterness.

The liberal elites are paying for their inability to keep the societal compact somewhat alive. If too many people don't have jobs and can't find a dentist, they will start a "voter disobedience".

Of course the second order effects will be huge, but it is, in a sense, necessary development. A democratic country has to be able to keep a majority of its people reasonably satisfied and well-off.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#283

Post by Narretz »

mrweasel wrote: post #175

So in the article, they talk about the AN/ALQ-131 jammer. It needs to be updated by the US, to keep up with the Russia counter measures, that's what's stopping. At least the F-16 donated by Denmark will most likely have pylons from Terma (ECIPS), which should work with the CJS from Leonardo (ECIPS/CJS). Shouldn't be to hard for Europe to make the required pylons for the planes who don't have the ECIPS and for those t…

Well it's always good to be specific, but I think it was the only thing that the US did for the F-16, wasn't it? They didn't exactly support sending planes in the first place. And it's not gonna be the last wrench the US will throw into Ukraine's (and Europe's) gears. It all piles up.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#284

Post by epistasis »

lolinder wrote: post #258
samcheng wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best explanation I've heard is that this (almost) half of the US population doesn't care if it hurts a bit, as long as it hurts the other half of the US population more.

No, that's not it. I'm writing this from rural America in deep Trump territory, and people here are already struggling and have been for years. From their perspective they've been left out of the benefits of the global economy—the big cities and the coasts might be better off, but the middle of the country wants to go back to when they had opportunities and jobs for working class Americans. They're almost certainly w…

That's a very very partial picture of it. There's a lot of hate about social change, people are terrified of trans people and that has been effectively turned into a culture war issue.

Also your economic story doesn't hold water. The Biden administration successfully placed tons of factories all over the country with tax incentives for clean energy, but those factories could never trumpet what they were doing because hate for Democrats and for Biden and for clean energy is stronger than any desire for jobs. Similarly the destruction of the CHIPS act and its unpopularity in rural areas also shows that the economic opportunity aspect is just an excuse for the cultural hate that has been worked up.

The best way to understand a Trump supporter that I have come to is a person that hates Democrats more than anything, and will do anything possible to bully them, including the economic destruction of the country. I have a lot of family like this, and for years I thought they were just joking or exaggerating about their hate, but the past year has shown me that they were earnest. It's not the 1990s anymore, this is a visceral culture war above all else.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#286

Post by Chance-Device »

I think I’ll use this thread to make a prediction.

At the end of Trump’s term:

- Europe will still be using F-16s and F-35s

- The US will still be in NATO, and will still be actively committed to the alliance

- European defense spending will be massively higher, with manufacturing and supply chains that are far less easily disrupted

- The US forces deployed to Europe will still be there, but will be bolstered by more European troops

- Russia will have maintained its status as simultaneously a threat and a non-threat

- Whatever the outcome in Ukraine, suddenly, nobody will care. The media won’t talk about it, people will have largely forgotten, and some other controversy or distraction will be the story of the day.

All of which will nicely serve the broader long term interests of the United States.

As it always is, no matter who is in the White House.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#287

Post by metalman »

eunos wrote: post #4
rich_sasha wrote: post #3

Right now every buyer of American kit is feverishly evaluating non-US alternatives. Seriously, America, this is like Brexit but 1000x. A voluntary decision, taken with gusto, to chop off arms and legs and ears and fingers and whatnot, cut off the deadwood, be light and free, a lone vessel on the ocean of prosperity, free of the burden of the stupid foreigners who are the sole reason why everything was going wrong.

Especially F-35 where lack of American support means total brick. Hey, at least Ukraine can use their S-300 systems and Sukhois against their maker.

"their S-300 systems and Sukhois against their maker" by "thier" you of course mean every single last operational legacy system from the former soviet block and customers.....so all of those ,ummmm, suppliers, are now realising the worth of the promesary "upgrades" they got for thier systems, plus knowing that even glancing east, is not going to go well, and that central europe now has them....."(insert unpleasant imagery here)" Trump been at this?, what 50 days? whole classes of sinecures getting shut down, no end in site

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#288

Post by robwwilliams »

actionfromafar wrote: post #36
bboygravity wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when was the US in the European Union or even near Europe? How is it like Brexit in the slightest? Why is it the US's responsibility to finance and organize the majority of EU's defense? PS: I'm from and in Europe. I don't get why it is a good or logical thing that the US should be responsible for the majority of "Western" defense on our territory.

The US administration agrees with you. It also decided it doesn't want to sell weapons to the Western world anymore, and that it wants to carry the cost of weapons development all itself without relying on exports. It also wants to forcibly grow competing defense contractors in Europe.

Sweet sarcasm. Agree.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#289

Post by paulddraper »

ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

> end of an empire

Imperialism is not good, so this is welcome.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#290

Post by glitchc »

Waterluvian wrote: post #216

I think this from French senator Claude Malhuret sums it up: This is a tragedy for the free world, but it’s first and foremost a tragedy for the United States. [President Donald] Trump’s message is that being his ally serves no purpose, because he will not defend you, he will impose more tariffs on you than on his enemies, and he will threaten to seize your territories, while supporting the dictators who invade you.…

No, I'm afraid you're wrong. US prosperity is rooted in its overwhelming military might. People dare not take it on for fear of reprisal. Those who occasionally try are quickly reminded through reciprocal action. US companies benefit greatly from secure operations and relatively laissez-faire domestic economic policies to grow into world behemoths.

Don't kid yourself for one second into thinking that your safety and security are tied to some "Kumbaya good feeling" that random strangers have towards you. The stick may be silent most of the time, but everyone knows it's there.

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