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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#541

Post by [deleted] »

jisnsm wrote: post #200
wyldfire wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The agenda that Trump advanced during campaigns was not "cut ourselves off from the rest of the world". Do his supporters really want this? What's the rationale he advances for this stance and the tarrifs? What would a president who was beholden to Russians do once elected? I mean -- what's the point of provoking Canada, of all countries? Canada as the 51st US state would be the new most populous state and would caus…

The agenda was to leave Ukraine and to have Europe pay for its own defence which is what’s happening here. Nothing more, nothing less. Don’t let yourself get manipulated by Reddit-tier arguments.

[deleted]

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#542

Post by kingkawn »

rich_sasha wrote: post #116
labster wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you, I think the problem goes beyond military equipment. There’s a lot of risk now in doing business with America in every field, because it’s so unpredictable. Why get cloud or SaaS from the US if they’re one executive order away from being forced to break the GDPR — or shut off service completely, like Maxar in Ukraine. Why build supply chains through America if the price of raw materials can arb…

Yes, I agree. There was a view that Trump is at least transactional - that so long as you pay (NATO defense spending target, US weapons etc) he'll have your back,.in a subscription basis. Likewise outside defense I guess. But that's going up in smoke rather quickly.

Trump is still transactional, but now the transaction is with Russia

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#543

Post by bmitc »

ericjmorey wrote: post #527
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

A substantially sized loud minority in the US is fully committed to a death cult of personality. The rest of us are suffering and unprepared for this.

What about all the "liberals", including many on this site, that not only bought into but actively promoted the cult of personality around Musk, Tesla, and SpaceX? Musk has always been a charlatan, and the majority of this very site bought into it.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#545

Post by daemonologist »

brandonmenc wrote: post #475
casenmgreen wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan is now going to be seriously worried.

Defending Taiwan is - unfortunately - a suicide mission. I'd rather not engage a hot war with China over it. We're going to have enough on our plate keeping China out of the Caribbean and our half of the Pacific. Buckle up.

The idea I think was that China would also rather not engage in a hot war with the US over it, and therefore would be content with the status quo (or at least content to wait for a favorable political climate in the US...).

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#547

Post by iw2rmb »

tehjoker wrote: post #428

My suspicion is Trump is putting pressure on Zelensky (a) because he hates him personally and (b) because he wants an even bigger mineral rights deal. The thinking being, let Zelensky stew in it without U.S. help and suffer some humiliating defeats and let him come crawling back to the table so that he can sell of the majority of his country to the Americans, far more than the Russians will ever get.

It's because Russia is on the verge of economic collapse and Putin forces Trump to cancel sanctions critical to them.

At this point, Russia got maximum from this war. These rare minerals deal is just to distract and it's nothing compared to oil, manganese and soil Russia will capture.

Also, I'm struggling to find any reason for Zelensky to sign the deal – no protection, zero chance to get land back. Just thrown under the bus. EU is better option.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#548

Post by stackedinserter »

rocqua wrote: post #471
AlecSchueler wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The point stands that Europe needs to arm itself. Europe needs to be able to defend itself without the US. Indeed there is slight toxicity to calling this 'manning up'. Especially towards men, where it signals that men should be strong enough to defend themselves. Which wronly reinforces the idea that capability in violence is a positive trait in men.

> that men should be strong enough to defend themselves

What's wrong with that, aside that it's missing "themselves and their women and children"?

The whole idea that it's somehow "toxic" made EU the weak sausage that it is now.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#549

Post by KerrAvon »

bennettnate5 wrote: post #314
samcheng wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best explanation I've heard is that this (almost) half of the US population doesn't care if it hurts a bit, as long as it hurts the other half of the US population more.

You mean (almost) a quarter of the population--only 47% of Republicans actually support funding Ukraine less [1]. There are plenty on both sides that disapprove of the foreign policy decisions of the current administration. I've seen these "people in party x categorically do y" comments a whole lot more recently, and it really feels like a net negative to political discourse. Based on the source I pointed to earlier,…

That data is outdated. That support has eroded since then, and will continue to erode now that Trump has stopped equivocating (lying) about his position on Ukraine.

Hate to break it to you, but people in the GOP will support anything Trump tells them to. The right wing political ecosystem is a closed system and it’s driven from the top down, and they’ll believe anything they’re told, so long as the entire ecosystem is reinforcing it. They spent 60 years building this system; it works really well now. And it’s the reason the country is now being dismantled, and the reason there’s nothing anyone can do about it. This system was the cracks in the foundation and Trump was the nitroglycerin.

There is nothing like this on the Democratic side of the fence. There’s no centralization of opinion, and there’s no media ecosystem whatsoever. The so-called “mainstream media” is now all owned by right-wing or at best center-right billionaires, so Democrats can’t actually push a message even if they could get it together, because they don’t have any microphones.

There were attempts at a Democratic media ecosystem, all of them sabotaged by centrists who didn’t want progressives to gain power. Because “better things aren’t possible” wasn’t a winning message and people on both sides of the political fence generally prefer progressive policies (until you associated them with the Democrats, then GOP support plunges.) But it would threaten people like Nancy Pelosi whose power and personal fortune derive from doing massive favors for defense contractors.

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