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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#481

Post by throw0101b »

lolinder wrote: post #258
samcheng wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best explanation I've heard is that this (almost) half of the US population doesn't care if it hurts a bit, as long as it hurts the other half of the US population more.

No, that's not it. I'm writing this from rural America in deep Trump territory, and people here are already struggling and have been for years. From their perspective they've been left out of the benefits of the global economy—the big cities and the coasts might be better off, but the middle of the country wants to go back to when they had opportunities and jobs for working class Americans. They're almost certainly w…

> Cheaper goods don't make up for dying towns.

Manufacturing output in the US is at an all-time high:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_St...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_St...

Though it's (a) smaller share of GDP compared to the 'good old days' of the 1950-60s, and (b) does not need as many workers because of automation. This is true in a lot of industries: various seaports have never imported/exports more goods, but have fewer dockworkers than decades ago because of containerization and giant cranes.

Though one problem is of 'concentrated loss': if a town/area was dependent on one factory (or industry), then it could be especially heavily hit because of that single point of failure.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#482

Post by touisteur »

jopsen wrote: post #102
dividedbyzero wrote: post #52

Today it's Ukraine and F35s, who and what will it be in a year? I suppose European governments are taking a long hard look at strategic dependencies on the US right now, like the whole economy running on top of Microsoft and Google and other US-made SaaS. If all of that went dark at once, I honestly don't know how some of the larger companies I know could keep operating. They all have fallbacks for critical infrastru…

In practice it goes both ways... Lots of critical things for the US is made exclusively in Europe. Lots of medicin that people rely on daily would be unavailable if EU/US trade broke down completely.

Aside from life-saving medicine, I was thinking that the un-availability (not 'available with tariffs' but 'we're not selling it to the US anymore') of Ozempic in the US might become a political problem, maybe more so than many other trade-war hits. Maybe it's easy to manufacture it locally but the time-gap until it's up and running might be too much to swallow...

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#483

Post by bhaak »

mrighele wrote: post #241
pokstad wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well he’s been very vocal about NATO countries increasing their defense contributions. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the US needs to sell all the weapons.

"Trump Tells Europe to Buy American Arms to Keep NATO Strong". [1] "U.S. President Donald Trump complained Thursday that his country's decades-old security treaty with Japan is nonreciprocal, as he steps up pressure on allies to increase defense spending and buy more American products." [2] It's about buying more American weapons. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-13/trump-tel... [2] https://english…

> It's about buying more American weapons.

He's an idiot if he really thinks that his actions will result in this.

European defense stocks are going parabolic right now.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#484

Post by rtp4me »

Chance-Device wrote: post #286

I think I’ll use this thread to make a prediction. At the end of Trump’s term: - Europe will still be using F-16s and F-35s - The US will still be in NATO, and will still be actively committed to the alliance - European defense spending will be massively higher, with manufacturing and supply chains that are far less easily disrupted - The US forces deployed to Europe will still be there, but will be bolstered by more…

Honestly, my gut feeling tells me the same. Time will tell...

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#485

Post by api »

epistasis wrote: post #266
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. Nope, turns out that the American Empire is being dismantled by something else entirely. A subset of the populace that feels jealous of those with more and scared of social change, reacting to try to hurt their fellow country men? A megalomaniac leader who is som…

The idea that the empire has a burden to civilize the world is a common theme in empires throughout history.

It's part honest desire to do something good with the position history has afforded the empire, and part self-serving rationalization, depending on who is doing the talking.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#486

Post by mopsi »

yimby2001 wrote: post #336
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

No one is using fighter jets in this war. Why? And everyone (who knows) knows this: The anti-air technology is too good to field a jet. It will just get shot down. so the Jets are now useless. so there’s no point in supporting useless jets. And no country is going to buy useless jets. But go on and make this political and not about some physical reality of our world.

Photos of a Mirage fighter jet shooting down a Russian Kh-101 cruise missile over Ukraine, published two days ago by the Ukrainian General Staff: https://x.com/GeneralStaffUA/status/1898105929364648055

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#487

Post by Erem »

arrobbiato wrote: post #367
casenmgreen wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan is now going to be seriously worried.

Taiwan should be thrilled. Every indication is that this administration is letting Europe fend for itself so it can focus on the Pacific.

The pacific is not safe from this effect. Trump has also recently started complaining about our security pact with Japan.

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2025/03/fd3521d51353-upda...

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#488

Post by abujazar »

I guess the Danes (just like us Norwegians) think the choice of F-35 rather than neighbouring allies' planes was wise... In contrast to the F-16, one can only assume that Trump & co can basically disable the F-35 or at least render it completely useless for battle. Norwegian operation of the F-35 is even completely dependent on American personnel for years to come.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#489

Post by tokai »

touisteur wrote: post #482
jopsen wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice it goes both ways... Lots of critical things for the US is made exclusively in Europe. Lots of medicin that people rely on daily would be unavailable if EU/US trade broke down completely.

Aside from life-saving medicine, I was thinking that the un-availability (not 'available with tariffs' but 'we're not selling it to the US anymore') of Ozempic in the US might become a political problem, maybe more so than many other trade-war hits. Maybe it's easy to manufacture it locally but the time-gap until it's up and running might be too much to swallow...

Not going to happen. It would kill Novo Nordisk, which would be extremely bad for the Danish economy.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#490

Post by sudoshred »

epistasis wrote: post #266
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. Nope, turns out that the American Empire is being dismantled by something else entirely. A subset of the populace that feels jealous of those with more and scared of social change, reacting to try to hurt their fellow country men? A megalomaniac leader who is som…

It is, in my own opinion, a common fallacy to attribute the outcome as a direct consequence of the associated ideology, when more often than not the ideology is at best a post-hoc rationalization. Material decisions and their natural consequences are far more consistently impactful than any abstract justification for them.
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