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Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

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Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#121

Post by Juliate »

add-sub-mul-div wrote: post #101
mschuster91 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? At age 8 I was wandering in Munich unattended. But okay, gotta admit, this is Germany we're talking about, so not many issues with hordes of mentally ill and/or homeless people doing anything from drugs to defecating on the sidewalk right next to big tech's offices [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/18/san-fr...

If your politicians back then had wanted to cultivate your fear badly enough, they'd easily have been able to find anecdotes or instances to scare you with.

Not _everything_ is in the hands of politicians. Communities, medias have a significant role too, where they can shame politicians trying stupid takes to shape the reality to their wishes.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#123

Post by haswell »

kennysoona wrote: post #110
mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

> The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. As much as I kind of agree, I want to fight so much for open access to the internet because it was so useful to me as a child, thirsty for information and starving for nourishment. I will say I think these laws are bonkers. Restrict what companies can do with child data, make it clear an account is a minors, that should be more than sufficient.

> I want to fight so much for open access to the internet because it was so useful to me as a child

As a child of the 80s who benefited greatly from the Internet as a kid (repressive religious parents, and the Internet was a lifeline), I feel extremely conflicted.

On the one hand, I absolutely want to preserve the kind of benefit we received growing up. On the other, the Internet looks nothing like it did when I was a kid.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#124

Post by slyall »

inetknght wrote: post #103
diebeforei485 wrote: post #99

I have my California Drivers License in my Apple Wallet. I should be able to prove to iPhone apps that I am 18+ (only a binary yes/no with no metadata) by the apps making a local API call to iOS, which checks this information with the unexpired drivers license on device.

What if you're born on February 29th? What if you're borth on March 1st and it's currently February 29, 18 years later?

Age Laws worry about dates. They don't care about leap years, time of birth or timezones.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#125

Post by qball »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #114
mschuster91 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? At age 8 I was wandering in Munich unattended. But okay, gotta admit, this is Germany we're talking about, so not many issues with hordes of mentally ill and/or homeless people doing anything from drugs to defecating on the sidewalk right next to big tech's offices [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/18/san-fr...

>homeless people doing anything from drugs to defecating on the sidewalk right next to big tech's offices And this harms people how?

Littering degrades the commons.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#126

Post by ty6853 »

qball wrote: post #112
mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

>Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. This is the attitude that led us to this problem in the first place. >Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? They're at much higher risk of being arrested/abducted by the police than they are anything else. This is a uniquely North American neurosis; this happens every day in every other nation. They take the subway to work/school or walk, l…

The Karens seem to perish in the backcountry. I have seen multiple elementary age children operating dirt bikes and heavy construction equipment on desert dirt roads.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#127

Post by ndriscoll »

ty6853 wrote: post #120
cameldrv wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public spaces are most definitely not "Adults Only" by default. You're not allowed to have a big billboard with porn on it, you have to show ID to get into a bar, you have to show ID to buy a pack of cigarettes, and in many states the cigarettes have to be in an opaque cabinet. You can't walk around naked. You can't be drunk in public. Now admittedly many of these things are unevenly enforced, but society absolutely…

The children didn't seem worse off in the days where a 2nd grader could bike 5 miles to the grocery store to buy mom a pack of smokes and dad a six pack.

https://www.lung.org/research/trends-in-lung-disease/tobacco...

> Long term, smoking rates have fallen 73% among adults, from 42.6% in 1965 to 11.6% in 2022.

> Long term, smoking rates have fallen 86% among youth, from 36.4% in 1997 to 3.8% in 2021.

I'd say that's better off, not just in childhood but with long term effects.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#128

Post by miki123211 »

armchairhacker wrote: post #65
saurik wrote: post #9

This should be held up as a visceral demonstration of how the "slippery slope" isn't inherently a fallacy, as many oft like to claim: it is merely a form of argument that is easy enough to get wrong--leading to a fallacy when the cause is disconnected--that people have become overly-wary of it, reacting to the premise of the conclusion without even bothering to analyze how steep the slope might be before tuning the i…

IMO slippery slope is a fallacy when the small step only supports the big step symbolically, shifting the “Overton Window”. It’s true that the Overton Window has some effect, but we shouldn’t avoid taking a step towards the middle just because it’s also a step towards the opposite bad side, if the middle is good. Wrt. privacy, the real issue is that the small step helps the big step not just symbolically. ID-based ag…

IMO the problem isn't ID-based age verification specifically, it's that such verification is usually impelemnted in a way where the service in question gets a lot more data than they need, with no real control over how that data is kept and processed.

It would absolutely be possible to implement that stuff in a fully privacy-preserving way, with nothing but basic cryptography, and the government could absolutely enforce that implementation.

Nobody is actually interested in promoting that though, the anti-big-tech crowd just wants verification no matter what, and the pro-privacy crowd just wants something to get angry about. Nobody is looking for a reasonable compromise here.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#129

Post by ty6853 »

ndriscoll wrote: post #127
ty6853 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The children didn't seem worse off in the days where a 2nd grader could bike 5 miles to the grocery store to buy mom a pack of smokes and dad a six pack.

https://www.lung.org/research/trends-in-lung-disease/tobacco... > Long term, smoking rates have fallen 73% among adults, from 42.6% in 1965 to 11.6% in 2022. > Long term, smoking rates have fallen 86% among youth, from 36.4% in 1997 to 3.8% in 2021. I'd say that's better off, not just in childhood but with long term effects.

[flagged]

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#130

Post by Braxton1980 »

dinkblam wrote: post #3

age verification should be backed into the browser and not into websites. parents should be able to access a (password protected) setting in any browser that can exclude some types of websites (like porn). governments should be free to go after any website not respecting that setting. but forcing the age-verification onto websites is just moronic.

Why
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