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Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

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Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#111

Post by whatshisface »

mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

Here's a list of things that I wouldn't want the police to do, but should be done:

- Kids should be in bed by 8.

- They shouldn't light fires in the back yard.

- They shouldn't run with knives.

If someone tried to use my support for those things as a basis for 24/7 surveillance of bedrooms, back yards and knife drawers, they'd be insane.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#112

Post by qball »

mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

>Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces.

This is the attitude that led us to this problem in the first place.

>Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended?

They're at much higher risk of being arrested/abducted by the police than they are anything else. This is a uniquely North American neurosis; this happens every day in every other nation. They take the subway to work/school or walk, like everyone else.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#113

Post by Braxton1980 »

mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

Why NYC and what harm are you referring to? General crime like murder?

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#114

Post by Braxton1980 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #95
mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

> Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? At age 8 I was wandering in Munich unattended. But okay, gotta admit, this is Germany we're talking about, so not many issues with hordes of mentally ill and/or homeless people doing anything from drugs to defecating on the sidewalk right next to big tech's offices [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/18/san-fr...

>homeless people doing anything from drugs to defecating on the sidewalk right next to big tech's offices

And this harms people how?

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#115

Post by Braxton1980 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #14
saurik wrote: post #9

This should be held up as a visceral demonstration of how the "slippery slope" isn't inherently a fallacy, as many oft like to claim: it is merely a form of argument that is easy enough to get wrong--leading to a fallacy when the cause is disconnected--that people have become overly-wary of it, reacting to the premise of the conclusion without even bothering to analyze how steep the slope might be before tuning the i…

Exactly. It's a fallacy when dealing with logical entities, but humans aren't logical entities.

But laws are not human only made by humans and should be logical

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#116

Post by cameldrv »

mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

Public spaces are most definitely not "Adults Only" by default. You're not allowed to have a big billboard with porn on it, you have to show ID to get into a bar, you have to show ID to buy a pack of cigarettes, and in many states the cigarettes have to be in an opaque cabinet. You can't walk around naked. You can't be drunk in public.

Now admittedly many of these things are unevenly enforced, but society absolutely does a lot in the physical world to make it appropriate for children.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#117

Post by whatshisface »

3np wrote: post #104
diebeforei485 wrote: post #99

I have my California Drivers License in my Apple Wallet. I should be able to prove to iPhone apps that I am 18+ (only a binary yes/no with no metadata) by the apps making a local API call to iOS, which checks this information with the unexpired drivers license on device.

That is trusting both Apple and the client, and also only works for iPhone. We can do better with zero-knowledge-proof-based schemes, which also allow securely decoupling issuance/certification from online verification. E.g. https://linc.cnil.fr/en/demonstration-privacy-preserving-age...

It's a privacy issue as long as Jim's Blackmail and Certificates, Inc. knows who they've certified.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#118

Post by Braxton1980 »

michaelmior wrote: post #36
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> age verification should be backed into the browser You want a mandated block of government code in every browser?

Such a law doesn't necessarily have to require that every browser include the content filtering code. Only that websites must correctly report the content they serve. Of course then the obvious workaround for someone wanting to access restricted content is just to install a browser that does not enforce the restrictions. But that's a problem even if browsers were "forced" to implement this anyway. There would always…

> Of course then the obvious workaround for someone wanting to access restricted content is just to install a browser that does not enforce the restrictions. But that's a problem even if browsers were "forced" to implement this anyway. There would always be a browser out there that didn't adhere to this rule anyway

So why are you for it if the solution isn't valid?

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#119

Post by Braxton1980 »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #33
fortran77 wrote: post #31

Parents can choose to restrict their kids internet access. That's the best way of handling this.

The Internet is so ubiquitous and intertwined in daily life that that's impossible and you know it.

For kids?

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#120

Post by ty6853 »

cameldrv wrote: post #116
mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

Public spaces are most definitely not "Adults Only" by default. You're not allowed to have a big billboard with porn on it, you have to show ID to get into a bar, you have to show ID to buy a pack of cigarettes, and in many states the cigarettes have to be in an opaque cabinet. You can't walk around naked. You can't be drunk in public. Now admittedly many of these things are unevenly enforced, but society absolutely…

The children didn't seem worse off in the days where a 2nd grader could bike 5 miles to the grocery store to buy mom a pack of smokes and dad a six pack.
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