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Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

reuters.com

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Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#71

Post by morkalork »

tombert wrote: post #66
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the collapse of the US as "The World's Policeman", will result in the most nuclear proliferation since the 50s. That alone will make the world a much, much more dangerous place.

Makes me wonder if I should get the hell out of New York. Seriously, if someone decides to nuke the US, where would they start? Almost certainly Washington DC and NYC. The US is too big to bomb in its entirety. Maybe I should move to Boise, Idaho or something. I don't think they're going to get bombed, and it seems nice.

Just avoid any rural areas east of Kansas or wherever there are minuteman silos!

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#72

Post by aerostable_slug »

forty wrote: post #37
jlaporte wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macron has been advocating for a European Army for around a decade. With the recent EU defence spending announcements the idea of a unified command structure in Europe is becoming likely. The French offer to extend their nuclear umbrella seems to me to have two purposes: 1. Deal with the immediate vulnerability opened by questions over U.S. Article 5 commitments to NATO 2. Try to get ahead of potential nuclear weapon…

Also selling weapons. What this idiot of Trump seems to have missed is that countries have been purchasing weapons to the US to actually purchase US protection (like Australia did when they cancelled the submarine purchase they did to France to purchase US ones instead). Now that the US has announced being an unreliable protector, there is probably good business opportunities for all the countries that are nuclear po…

Depends on the weapons.

Certainly France is competitive when it comes to ships and many expendable munitions, but they aren't selling F-35s and the US is, and so far it seems that the juice is worth the substantial squeeze when it comes to that jet. The race is largely for second, because first place (the Lightning) is so far in front of the pack.

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#73

Post by TheAlchemist »

For several reasons, France is uniquely positioned to be the leader of Europe. Nuclear arms, a lot of nuclear energy, defense industry, food independence. All of this thanks to Charles De Gaulle, who insisted that France must be autonomous in most important domains.

With hindsight, this was extremely important. Without France's nuclear energy and arms, Europe would be in a very very bad position right now.

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#74

Post by hypeatei »

tombert wrote: post #66
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the collapse of the US as "The World's Policeman", will result in the most nuclear proliferation since the 50s. That alone will make the world a much, much more dangerous place.

Makes me wonder if I should get the hell out of New York. Seriously, if someone decides to nuke the US, where would they start? Almost certainly Washington DC and NYC. The US is too big to bomb in its entirety. Maybe I should move to Boise, Idaho or something. I don't think they're going to get bombed, and it seems nice.

You won't want to live anywhere after nukes start flying. Even if your location isn't hit directly, you're dealing with a complete collapse of society as we know it. Not to mention things like nuclear winter.

> The US is too big to bomb in its entirety.

Russia has ~5500 warheads, so maybe not every square inch but certainly several cities and other locations in each state.

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#75

Post by watwut »

jimbob45 wrote: post #52
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the next move? Let the Ukrainians decide. The war could have been over if Biden and Musk hadn’t meddled in Kyiv’s strategy. There is no peace with a Moscow that believes it can gain resources and mollify its population with wars of expansion. Pausing in Ukraine just allows for build-up for another wave. Maybe in Ukraine. Maybe elsewhere.

The war could have been over if Biden and Musk hadn’t meddled in Kyiv’s strategy. This is the exact line of thinking that Hitler used to justify WW2. Surely we can all see this logic for the farce that it is. Ukraine never had a shot at winning this war and it’s only with massive international support that they’re able to maintain the fragile stalemate they now find themselves in.

> This is the exact line of thinking that Hitler used to justify WW2.

Hitlers literal claim was that Germany needs a living space, that Germans do not fit into German. Plus he claimed that the world is a war of races. Like, these were his literal justications.

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#76

Post by mhog_hn »

tombert wrote: post #66
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the collapse of the US as "The World's Policeman", will result in the most nuclear proliferation since the 50s. That alone will make the world a much, much more dangerous place.

Makes me wonder if I should get the hell out of New York. Seriously, if someone decides to nuke the US, where would they start? Almost certainly Washington DC and NYC. The US is too big to bomb in its entirety. Maybe I should move to Boise, Idaho or something. I don't think they're going to get bombed, and it seems nice.

Similarly there are Europeans considering a move to rural France or the Iberian peninsula.

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#77

Post by Earw0rm »

robwwilliams wrote: post #59
hagbard_c wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and before you know it the old rivalries flare up again on who is to be the leader of this fourth iteration of a European empire. Germany versus France, France versus the UK, Germany versus Poland, Italy versus France, a combination of some of these versus one of the others. A 'European army' would be under the control of... the EU? Some new organisation to be specifically created for this purpose? Some committee-…

Not much more diverse than the US. Yes, a melting pot, but Europe is now a big melting pot too. The most important axes is City versus rural communities which boils down to rich vs poor. And the USA and Europe are very similar in this way.

I can't speak for the US, but in Europe it's less rich/poor (though some country folk would like you to think so), and more rural conservative values vs city progressive values (which weirdly harbour some very religious-conservative people from immigrant/minority communities).

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#78

Post by JumpCrisscross »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #68
robwwilliams wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, ridiculously slow to reach the melting temperature on decision making. But the transition could now be quick.

You know the more I think about it, the more I consider that even without US support, their primary adversary has already demonstrated their impotence as an offensive military power. Maybe they simply don't need to do much more than they're already doing.

> their primary adversary has already demonstrated their impotence

…the call is coming from inside the house. Europe’s existential risk has shifted from Russia to a Russo-American alliance.

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#79

Post by morkalork »

cjbenedikt wrote: post #40

Just wondering what Australia might think now after having rejected the French nuclear sub deal for a US one. Perhaps DJT might consider "buying" Australia soon? Lots more minerals than Ukraine.

Sitting between an antagonistic USA and China must be uncomfortable.

Re: Macron to open debate on extending French nuclear protection to European allies

#80

Post by tombert »

hypeatei wrote: post #74
tombert wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me wonder if I should get the hell out of New York. Seriously, if someone decides to nuke the US, where would they start? Almost certainly Washington DC and NYC. The US is too big to bomb in its entirety. Maybe I should move to Boise, Idaho or something. I don't think they're going to get bombed, and it seems nice.

You won't want to live anywhere after nukes start flying. Even if your location isn't hit directly, you're dealing with a complete collapse of society as we know it. Not to mention things like nuclear winter. > The US is too big to bomb in its entirety. Russia has ~5500 warheads, so maybe not every square inch but certainly several cities and other locations in each state.

You know, those underground bomb shelters from the 50's and 60's always did seem kind of cool...
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