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An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#171

Post by mmooss »

People love to pile on - it's a popular modern social game.

But in this case they are damaging something especially valuable, one of the leading privacy and freedom organizations in the world, during a very dangerous time. (And also one that doesn't buy or organize an army of 'grassroots' support.)

Cui bono?

I think Mozilla has made clear that they use the data for things the user requests. If someone thinks otherwise, please quote the current language (not the language from two days ago).

They also are innovators in privacy-preserving advertising. Almost anything else on the web is much worse: it has ads and collects personal data. Not only does Mozilla not collect personal data, if they can create effective privacy-preserving advertising, they could transform privacy (again) by not only sharing this technology but demonstrating to government that the privacy violations are unnecessary for business profitability.

Yet people are throwing all that out for the energy and excitement of piling on. That's a really bad choice, as far as I can see. If that's not what's happening, why are almost all posts expressed that way? How about some reasonable, calm discussion?

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#172

Post by rapnie »

ho_schi wrote: post #148
chinathrow wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla, then Phoenix, then Firefox user for over 27y or so. If they can't stop abusing their users, I will look for another browser, goddamnit.

They are only three viable web-engines left over from the second browser-war: * Blink (Google): Used in everything, from Chrome, Edge, Opera, Qt-Toolkit, Electron. * Gecko (Mozilla): Firefox. And Waterfox? I assume Gecko is still hard to integrate. * WebKit and WebKitGtk (Apple and Gtk): Safari, Epiphany and Gtk-Toolkit. Easy to integrate. And the only engine where I’m aware that actually two side actively cooperate…

Though not yet ready for the public don't forget the promising https://servo.org

(It is very usable already in combination with Tauri as alternative to Electron + Chromium)

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#173

Post by thisislife2 »

mmooss wrote: post #150
move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

> According to CA and other states Mozilla is collecting and selling your data. The definition requires Mozilla to do it "in exchange for “monetary” or “other valuable consideration.”". What consideration is Mozilla receiving and from who?

Personally, any application that even collects personal data is problematic for me. Personal data of a user has a value, and a large repository of personal data, of millions of users, makes the company valuable too. Any data collected can be monetised, if not immediately (as part of the company's business model) or in the future (when the company is sold).

With Mozilla, for example, displaying sponsored links using Firefox Suggest ( https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-news/fi... ) means collecting and sharing personal data (like search keywords, browsing history or bookmarks). This data sharing, with another company, could either be the raw data or the processed data. In either case, it is a problematic issue for any privacy conscious and politically aware user because either party or multiple parties will (or can) create profiles from the data. "Anonymous" data collection doesn't have any meaning here because with enough data points from a particular user, you can reasonably identify a user (either to track them digitally or to even to identify their personhood in real life, for legal or political reasons). This is easier to do so if you also combine it with data from multiple sources. (Which is what the US NSA programs with US BigTech are doing, and why these companies are so valuable today - Data is the new oil).

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#174

Post by mmooss »

rdtsc wrote: post #135
move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

This is a funny case where Mozilla thought they are clarifying their position by pointing out how ridiculously CA defines "sales" only for it to blow up in their face. This is not the first time it happens to companies where in an act of desperation they issue some "apology" or explanation only to make the whole thing worse. Now people will read even more carefully their privacy policy https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/p…

Based on the parent, all the collected data preserves privacy:

> Firefox also shows its own search suggestions based on information stored on your local device

That data stays on your computer ...

> Mozilla processes [...] how many searches you perform, how many sponsored suggestions you see and whether you interact with them.

That description contains no user content: number of searches, number of ads, whether you interact says nothing about you - it doesn't say what you click on or see, just that you clicked.

> position, size, views and clicks on New Tab content or ads

Again, there is no content mentioned, just number of clicks and not what you click on.

> [Definitions]

This section defines terms; it doesn't say they are doing anything.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#175

Post by mort96 »

mmooss wrote: post #171

People love to pile on - it's a popular modern social game. But in this case they are damaging something especially valuable, one of the leading privacy and freedom organizations in the world, during a very dangerous time. (And also one that doesn't buy or organize an army of 'grassroots' support.) Cui bono? I think Mozilla has made clear that they use the data for things the user requests. If someone thinks otherwis…

Sorry, but only Mozilla is damaging Mozilla here. Anyone could have predicted that their actions these past days would be devastating to their reputation.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#176

Post by mmooss »

wtallis wrote: post #169
mmooss wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought they removed the reference to Firefox?

From TFA: > Here’s what the new language will say: > You give Mozilla the rights necessary to operate Firefox. This includes processing your data as we describe in the Firefox Privacy Notice. It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content. They're still broadly refe…

Thanks.

> They're still broadly referring to "Firefox" with alarming language.

"alarming" is a low standard - people get alarmed because they see everyone else throwing a fit.

They say it's only for "doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox" - how is that alarming?

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#177

Post by mmooss »

wtallis wrote: post #170
mmooss wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It may be relevant that Mozilla recently acquired a Meta-created ad tracking company and is now awash with Meta ad execs. [0] That greatly misrepresents what the article says; really Mozilla acquired a company with a mission to get user data out of the advertising industry, which happened to be founded by former Meta employees: Two years after leaving Meta to launch their own privacy-focused ad measurement startup…

> Anonym also has technology that allows ad platforms and advertisers to securely share encrypted impression and conversion data within a trusted execution environment for attribution, causal lift measurement and lookalike modeling. Wow, "secure", "encrypted", and "trusted" all in one sentence. They're trying to make it sound as reassuring as possible, but they're still doing tracking.

They're not, in fact. That's the whole point of their business. Where does it say they are tracking anyone - which means recording personal information?

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#178

Post by xvilka »

At this point, I believe, it's important to accelerate development of Servo[1], which not only provides better browser security because of memory safety (getting rid of the stupid mistakes like OOB access or UAF), but is also managed[2] by Linux Foundation Europe[3], which gives more hope from the privacy standpoint.

[1] https://github.com/servo/servo

[2] https://servo.org/about/

[3] https://linuxfoundation.eu/

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#179

Post by mmooss »

mort96 wrote: post #175
mmooss wrote: post #171

People love to pile on - it's a popular modern social game. But in this case they are damaging something especially valuable, one of the leading privacy and freedom organizations in the world, during a very dangerous time. (And also one that doesn't buy or organize an army of 'grassroots' support.) Cui bono? I think Mozilla has made clear that they use the data for things the user requests. If someone thinks otherwis…

Sorry, but only Mozilla is damaging Mozilla here. Anyone could have predicted that their actions these past days would be devastating to their reputation.

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