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Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

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Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#441

Post by forevernoob »

MisterKent wrote: post #410
forevernoob wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...the first Framework Laptop 12 motherboard is going to use Intel's 13th-generation Core i3 and i5 processors I _really_ hope they launch an AMD version (perhaps with an iGPU) soon after that. That and preferably with Libreboot support. This would make it the ideal portable laptop for me and thus I'd be able to (finally!) replace my X220T.

I am a fan of open source and being able to tinker etc. But I've never felt the need (advantage?) to do more than just use the bios/efi to boot or configure a few basics. I've been burned by a small SBC that had poor support, but on laptops/desktops never felt limited. But people always sound so excited to libreboot their personal computer... Am I missing out or is it just nerd cred?

I'd say that after numerous revelations in regards to UEFI vulnerabilities and such, an open source BIOS / EFI has become a necessity for me rather than something just nice to have.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#442

Post by AshamedCaptain »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #347
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly why they did do it and definitely do not continue releasing phones with 500ppi to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S22#Display

Yeah, Samsung likes to tout specs on their flagships, but they’ve also made the resolution user-adjustable (presumably not for no reason). If you put the phone in battery saver mode, lowering resolution is one of the things it does.

They have not done that for years? That used to be a thing 5 years ago or so, but nowadays battery saving mode just forces 60 hz refresh rate but otherwise does not change the resolution. I do not buy top of the line devices so I do not know for sure, but mine has >1080p and keeps the resolution for sure.

And, to give an idea of what are we talking about, even in such power saving modes these much smaller and older phones still have more pixels than a 1080p screen.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#443

Post by mgraupner »

genewitch wrote: post #365
scarlehoff wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I'm still using my 11" MacBook because it is the only one that fits in my handbag :)

What OS? My air can't upgrade and is out of space with like nothing installed. Curious if still macos or something else, now.

You can upgrade the disk of a MacBook Air with a larger SSD and install newer MacOS versions with https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#444

Post by AshamedCaptain »

kibwen wrote: post #367
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or rather it sounds as someone misreading me again as asking for "progress" when I'm just asking not to skimp over on what was already offered 10 years ago and practically everyone else still offers today.

> practically everyone else still offers today The Steam Hardware Survey shows that 1920x1080 is still the majority resolution, and that's among an audience that's inordinately populated by technological enthusiasts. The fact that people are seemingly dead-set on sticking to 1920x1080 despite--as you point out--the availability of alternatives only further strengthens the argument that the majority of consumers just…

Note that I game at 1080p (or worse), even on my setup with dual 4k monitors (because it is also over 10 years old), so neither shows up on steam survey as anything other than 1080p (which also puts dual setups at a different category). Gaming at 1080p or even higher still requires thousands on GPUs which I'm not willing to do. However simply having more than 1080p for desktop usage is accessible and has been so for over 10 years. A 4k monitor costs a fraction of what a gaming GPU costs. My desktop iGPU from 2014 has zero problems driving 2x4k. It also does so with the system consuming less than 60W from the wall at usage (lower than some laptop CPUs do these days).

If you want to play the useless popularity game, go and check what are the resolutions on the phones and tablets with even smaller screens sold in the last 10 years (which exceeds the number of laptops by far), and even friggin' eink notepads.

"The fact" is people today would never accept sub-retina dpis even for cheap phones, and the market has clearly spoken. "The fact" is your arguments about human perception are utter bullshit (as trivially disproven as todays arguments about 60fps), and remind me of the discussions I had when forced to use 60fps 800x600 TN screens (pure hell on earth) after having used 1280 at 90hz for ages with CRTs, all in the name of "progress".

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#445

Post by AshamedCaptain »

6SixTy wrote: post #317
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On sibling thread I already mention the Surface Pro (convertible) at 12'' and it's 2880 x 1920. The next 2025 convertible that I found, Latitude 7350, is also 2880 x 1920 (at 13'', though). In fact, most of the 12'' convertibles with 1080p are either sub$800 (which I doubt this thing is) or come from Lenovo (whom you really do NOT want to compare with regarding screen quality -- https://www.notebookcheck.net/Enough-w…

That model of Surface is nearing almost 8 years old by now. Not current by my standards. I'm thinking about the chance of existing tooling still being around to make a screen and slap into a laptop rather than if it existed at one point. But yes, considering that Framework's Chromebook is/was expensive (over $1k) for the class doesn't give a lot of faith that the 12in model would be any different. Though that was equ…

The last Surface model is less than one month old. The chassis was updated less than 2 years ago ( and to reduce the screen margins, no less ), and the resolution was improved again.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#446

Post by harrison_clarke »

dangus wrote: post #287
harrison_clarke wrote: post #46

would have been cool to know about this a month ago i just built a mini ITX gaming PC for a friend, and this one looks pretty good for quality/$. good enough that i wouldn't be surprised if these get snapped up and re-sold for more than the sticker price i think it makes more sense to think of it as a high-end console, given that basically everything is soldered, though

This is a terrible gaming PC. It’s really meant for running LLMs, the main benefit is the large amount of unified graphics memory, which is not relevant to gaming. For one thing, the price per FPS for gaming is going to be terrible. This price can get you a serious rig with much better performance. Gaming is a very specific workload that almost entirely depends on the GPU. It is hard to even purchase a CPU that perfo…

a quick search told me that this thing's GPU (8060s) is comparable to a 4070

from what i can tell, a 4070 alone is ~$750. this thing is apparently $799 for the CPU+GPU+RAM+motherboard all soldered together ($300 more for case+PSU+SSD)

if the CPU+RAM+motherboard are costing me $50, i don't really care if i have to throw them out along with the GPU

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#447

Post by sureIy »

GuB-42 wrote: post #163

It is a weird product for the Framework brand. The pitch for the Framework laptop is that it is repairable/upgradable/modular. Something that is uncommon for laptops nowadays. This is the opposite. Desktops are modular by default, so much is that my computer is like the Ship of Theseus, I never changed it, but upgrade to upgrade, it is a completely different machine than it once was (it started off as a 486!). This o…

> I never changed it, but upgrade to upgrade, it is a completely different machine than it once was (it started off as a 486!)

Nit: You can believe that story, but there's zero chance that at some point you didn't upgrade the case, motherboard, CPU and RAM possibly at the same time. If you replace 90% of what makes a computer, does it make sense to say you "never changed" it? At what point do you consider it "changed"?

This Framework desktop also lets you swap motherboard, CPU and RAM in one go, why does it not fit your definition?

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#448

Post by wolfric »

sureIy wrote: post #447
GuB-42 wrote: post #163

It is a weird product for the Framework brand. The pitch for the Framework laptop is that it is repairable/upgradable/modular. Something that is uncommon for laptops nowadays. This is the opposite. Desktops are modular by default, so much is that my computer is like the Ship of Theseus, I never changed it, but upgrade to upgrade, it is a completely different machine than it once was (it started off as a 486!). This o…

> I never changed it, but upgrade to upgrade, it is a completely different machine than it once was (it started off as a 486!) Nit: You can believe that story, but there's zero chance that at some point you didn't upgrade the case, motherboard, CPU and RAM possibly at the same time. If you replace 90% of what makes a computer, does it make sense to say you "never changed" it? At what point do you consider it "changed…

Hence The Ship of Theseus comment

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#449

Post by ein0p »

sliken wrote: post #408
ein0p wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's frustrating is there's no real reason why regular DDR5 can't reach 1TB/sec with a sufficient number of channels. The manufacturers are just holding it back to drip feed that memory bandwidth over several generations. Except for Apple, which lets you have 800GB/sec now, and will let you have 1TB/sec+ in M5 Ultra next year. It's $$$$, but still - the true alternatives are much less cost effective.

Right, like the mac studio ultra. Or a dual socket AMD Turin. Or a grace+hopper (assuming you offload to the hopper). Latency is dictated by the laws of physics, more bandwidth is easy, but not cheap.

It can be relatively cheap too under the constraints imposed by typical AI workloads, at least when it comes to getting to a 1TB/s or so. All you need is high-spec DDR5 and _a ton_ of memory channels in your SOC. During transformer inference you will easily be able to use those parallel, multichannel reads. I get why you'd need HBM and several TB/s of memory bandwidth for extremely memory intensive training workloads. But for inference 1TB/s gives you a lot to work with (especially if your model is a MoE), and it doesn't have to be ultra expensive.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#450

Post by anacrolix »

I've been building mini ITX systems since 2013, trying to accomplish what they've done. It's a kickass form factor. All in one systems like this are wicked, and they've pushed for modularity too, which is the reason to do this rather than a laptop or enterprise product (not Framework laptops tho, which is their draw too). Very excited.
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