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Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#391

Post by elxr »

fragmede wrote: post #75
rdedev wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from AMD

So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing. edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.

Compared to the most popular alternative (mac mini / mac studio), it's still way more inline with the framework mission.

You can still buy the motherboard version and use your own case and PSU. That's better than not just the macs, but also many other mini PCs.

And considering the chip, it's still the most modular way to buy a Ryzen 395 for the foreseeable future.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#392

Post by mohsen1 »

mhitza wrote: post #199
sangnoir wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So don't make it then? You presume to have internalized Framework's core-values more than the founder/CEO? The box is not my cup of tea,but they are free to experiment.

> You presume to have internalized Framework's core-values more than the founder/CEO? His reaction in the livestream was along these lines when he semi-jokingly said "I'm surprised no one from the audience threw something at me" At a larger event I would have kind of expected a "boo", but it seemed like a rather small gathering where most people knew each other. Unlike the live 12k Youtube chat, that was very surpris…

You can't argue with laws of physics at some point. Every nanometer counts at those frequencies. You can't put your RAM too far at some point in which a physical socket will be a deal breaker.

Also, Framework doesn't need to make something for you to "build a PC". PCs are extremely modular already. They are solving a different problem here.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#393

Post by rangestransform »

TheAmazingRace wrote: post #319
SSLy wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't any standard to put that kind of RAM on DIMM-like slots.

Honestly... I wonder why they didn't consider CAMM2? The bandwidth and signal integrity rivals that of soldiered memory. They could have had the best of both worlds, really.

AFAIK you would need 4 CAMM modules for that kind of bandwidth, good luck stuffing that onto a board at all, let alone for a reasonable price

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#394

Post by ezschemi »

zamadatix wrote: post #339
kllrnohj wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That market, "repairable modular desktops", is extremely saturated. This only exists because nobody was putting the Ryzen AI Max+ 395 in anything, so they got gifted the entire market of "GPUs with more than 32gb of RAM that aren't Apple." And then a desktop because fitting this in a laptop is hard (hence why nobody else is doing it, either)

> This only exists because nobody was putting the Ryzen AI Max+ 395 in anything... And then a desktop because fitting this in a laptop is hard (hence why nobody else is doing it, either) The Ryzen AI Max+ 395 was paper launched a month ago. What Framework announced here is just another pre-order (even batch 1 won't ship until Q3). There are dozens of other systems, including mini-PCs, announced months ago which are s…

Where can I find those mini-PCs? The HP Z2 Mini G1a is "Coming Soon". If this is to be believed: "2025年5月以降販売開始予定", which translate to "Sales scheduled to start after May 2025" That is Q2 2025 - at the earliest.

I haven't found any other with a committed release/ship date.

This Reddit thread tends to agree: https://www.reddit.com/r/MiniPCs/comments/1ieiate/when_are_r...

Even the Asus Z13 laptops with the 395+ have no shipping date yet.

Looking at the two GMKtec systems with their rattling fans I have here, I would rather take the Framework system where I can easily swap the fan. Cooling those 100-120W will take space and air flow.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#395

Post by WD-42 »

iamtheworstdev wrote: post #289
brunoqc wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you prefer AMD? price, heat/fan noise?

i don't know about other people's experience - but my framework with intel cpu is always running that fan relatively maxed out even when it's not doing anything. And it has massive issues staying asleep which is some sort of driver issue with Windows. But I can be an airport and all of a sudden my backpack feels like it's about to combust and i can hear my laptop fan rippin', even though it should be asleep.

Some new laptops cannot actually fully suspend to ram. It sounds crazy but I had this issue even after installing Linux on a laptop. It’s a hardware limitation. You can thank Microsoft for trying to make sure they can sneak in OS updates when you think your laptop is asleep.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#397

Post by sliken »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #271
rokweom wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently this is due to signal integrity. AMD says swappable RAM is not possible. Source: LinusTechTips video.

The non-MAX Ryzen laptops also announced today actually use socketed RAM. I guess they'd claim it is only the MAX AMD procs which force soldered RAM, but since they could as well have used a non-MAX chip (and correspondingly reduce the price) this just shows how much of this is an arbitrary, and therefore questionable, decision from Framework rather than any restriction AMD sets.

Yes, those are the ones with a 128 bit memory bus that can reuse designs from previous generations. Nearly every laptop and desktop has has 128 bit memory for the last few decades, the strix halo is the first with 256 bit wide x86 targeted at tablets, laptops, and SFFs. Much like the m1/m2/m4 pro. The M3 pro for some reason decided on 192 bits wide.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#398

Post by FloatArtifact »

I'm pretty torn when to self-host AI 70 B models. The market seems to be evolving fast. Outside of Apple, this is the first product to really compete in this category Self-host AI. So... I think a second generation will be significantly better than what's currently on offer today. Rationale below...

For a max spec processor with ram at $2,000, this seems like a decent deal given today's market. However, this might age very fast for three reasons.

Reason 1: LPDDR6 may debut in the next year or two this could bring massive improvements to memory bandwidth and capacity for soldered on memory.

LPDDR6 vs LPDDR5 - Data bus width - 24 bits, 16 bits Burst length - 24 bits, 15 bits Memory bandwidth - Up to 38.4 GB/s, Up to 6.7 GB/s

- Camm ram may or may not be maintain signal integrity as memory bandwidth increases. Until I see it implemented for a AI use-case in a cost-effective manner, I am skeptical.

Reason 2: - It's a laptop chip with limited PCI lanes and reduced power envelope. Theoretically, a desktop chip could have better performance, more lanes, socketable (Although, I don't think I've seen a socketed CPU with soldered RAM)

Reason 3: In addition, what does hardware look like being repurposed in the future compared to alternatives?

- Unlike desktop or server counterparts which can have a higher cpu core count, PCEe/IO Expansion, this processor with its motherboard is limited on re-purposing later down the line as a server to self-host other software besides AI. I suppose could be turned into a overkill, NAS with ZFS and HBA Single Controller Card in new case.

- Buying into the framework desktop is pretty limited based on the form factor. Next generation might be able to include a 16x slot fully populated, a 10G nic. That seems about it if they're going to maintain the backward compatibility philosophy given the case form factor.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#399

Post by sliken »

cogman10 wrote: post #43
sunshowers wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no other way to get 256 GB/s of memory bandwidth for this cheap, and that's quite valuable in many workloads. I'm curious to get one for compiling code too. You can get similar bandwidth with server boards that cost 5-10x as much, or with a Mac Studio that costs 2.5x as much.

> You can get similar bandwidth with server boards Could be wrong, but I don't think you can. The bandwidth limit, AFAIK, is a problem with the DDR5 spec. These soldered solutions can go faster specifically because they aren't DDR5.

Nvidia Grace is DDR5, hopper is HBM. Many servers like Intel and AMD's latest and greatest all use DDR5.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#400

Post by anticensor »

rangestransform wrote: post #393
TheAmazingRace wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly... I wonder why they didn't consider CAMM2? The bandwidth and signal integrity rivals that of soldiered memory. They could have had the best of both worlds, really.

AFAIK you would need 4 CAMM modules for that kind of bandwidth, good luck stuffing that onto a board at all, let alone for a reasonable price

CAMM, unlike DIMM, is designed to be amenable to stacking from the get go.
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