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We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

mertbulan.com

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Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#161
post #112
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The charger situation is much better than GDPR or CE marking, in that it clearly mandates what should be done. The other two get bogged down because it's so unclear what has to be done to be compliant while actually shipping a service or product.

The typical formula is: if you aren't confident that you are complying with the law, maybe don't operate a business that way. Welcome to compliance! That is the thing with bureaucracy; it isn't there to help people run just-acceptable privacy violating businesses. It is there to squelch the ones that are unacceptable. If you want the EU to write an acceptable business plan it'd be "don't start this business, it might…

>The typical formula is: if you aren't confident that you are complying with the law, maybe don't operate a business that way. Welcome to compliance!

And the result is that they get exactly what they asked for: people not operating businesses that they otherwise would have, because of onerous, burdensome, complex, bureaucratic and uncertain rules.

Any business can "violate privacy" because the EU has made up a definition of "privacy" that is totally absurd. It created from thin air (with no public debate) the idea that information about you belongs to you. I say that is rubbish.

Privacy used to have a clear and narrow meaning. It meant freedom from interference with your things. It meant the state could not break into your house, set up cameras or microphones, snoop on your documents, read your mail, or listen to your phone conversations.

Somehow we have a world where we are under constant CCTV surveillance by the state (Britain is the worst for this but other states aren't far behind, and are all very bad) and that is supposed to be fine. But if you contact someone's previous employer to ask your opinion of the employee, without the employee's permissions, you have "violated their privacy". This is because a "privacy principle" is that if you "collect" "personal information" about someone, you should collect it from them, directly, except with their permission.

Nobody understood "privacy" to mean you couldn't do casual reference checks until 5 minutes ago. Now it is supposedly a fundamental human right!

Even if you were confident you were within the bounds of privacy law when you started your business, by the time you get off the ground and start making money they'll have expanded the definition of "privacy" to encompass something new. It is completely reasonable for people to choose not to bother with all this crap, IMO.

The fundamental thing behind this is revealed by your comment, actually:

>And there does seem to be support for the EU regulating in that manner. I haven't met many people who are pro-privacy-violations.

Exactly! The word "privacy" has strong cultural power. If you can put your pet concept into that category by stretching then idea to breaking point, people will support it by accident. People care about "privacy" because they care about privacy (the real, coherent, original concept). They mostly don't even realise how much the term has been twisted and changed over the last 10 or so years. If they did, they either would change it back or they'd stop caring about the term. Because, remember, words are just labels. In the long term, this language twisting shit doesn't work. In the short term, though, you can trick people into supporting things by calling them "privacy" or "human rights" or "equity" even though those terms didn't mean, even 10 or 20 years ago, anything like what they supposedly mean today.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#162

I think Mittelstand is perhaps misdirecting away from a more interesting conversation. Reading between the lines, this highlights an inherent bias in the majority of American companies to provide service to extract value as opposed to providing service for public benefit. Simply put, it's "move fast and break things" versus "WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE." If you want to dig deeper, this is a consequence of America begin…

>Reading between the lines, this highlights an inherent bias in the majority of American companies to provide service to extract value as opposed to providing service for public benefit. American businesses do the same thing businesses do anywhere: try to generate more valuable products and services than they consume. It really is as simple as that. No value is "extracted" when you sell bread for more than it cost to…

I'm taking about extracting value from consumers. Capitalism/communism is a straw man here. It's the attitudes that motivate product development.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#163

The authors examples of “Digital Mittelstand” companies are not businesses at all but tiny “creator economy” side projects. These do not scale to 30% of GDP in the same way high value B2B industrial equipment does (in manufacturing you happily pay $100,000 for a piece of machinery because it can turn inputs into more valuable outputs at scale). Instead of coming up with incorrect ideas about what the government shoul…

It's probably more of cultural difference. It's common in the US to build companies like a lot of houses are build in the US. In the US houses are often build from wood and plaster and have a high chance of being knocked down by a storm. Companies in the US are often build on a ton of dept (and never making a profit is not considered "weird") and have a high chance of being knocked down by a storm. In Europe people l…

US vs. EU building materials is actually locally determined - there's a lot more forest in the vast empty spaces of the US and Canada, hence all the cheap wood.

Same for oil. Same for e.g. the UK steel industry. I think people underestimate the extent to which the EU either doesn't have the same level of natural resources, or has used them up. There's a reason the last time that Germany got serious about resource independence it tried to invade Azerbaijan despite the USSR being in the way.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Europeans can’t figure out new valuable areas where they can contribute to the world, than their system isn’t as clever or morally righteous or fantastic as they think it is. I don't think it follows that unprofitable things are by definition not clever, righteous, or fantastic. This seems like a blinkered, American-capitalist viewpoint.

Profitable and valuable are synonymous. If something is more valuable than the inputs used to make it, then it is profitable to make it. Things being clever, or righteous, or "fantastic" (whatever that means) doesn't mean that people actually value them. That isn't what value means. Something is more valuable if you would give up more to have it. It is less valuable if you would give up less to have it. Basically, no…

> Profitable and valuable are synonymous.

So your police, firefighters, the military, health services (not in the US though) and various charities are not valuable? That is an interesting take.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#165
post #91
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did, it was super easy.

It takes months and you’re required to go to a notary at least twice and you have to put down 12500/25000EUR. This is absolute nonsense. In the UK you can open a limited company with 12GBP in a matter of days. Oh and it’s completely online, something which Germany will never have in the foreseeable future.

Not to mention in Germany the quarterly/or even monthly tax accountant fees that could bleed into a couple thousand easily in the first year of operation.

I'd say in Germany for starting a new GmbH you'd need at least 4-5k set on the side for lawyer/notary/accountant fees, this can be deducted from the 12.5k/25k bank account but it's a pain in the ... for the average startup.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but what if the big-software type economy isn't actually that useful? Maybe you can grow it to 30% of GDP if you start doing a bunch of bad stuff, but if it can be replaced by open source local stuff-- if it's possible to simply kill facebook, Microsoft etc. and replace them with Linux together with a couple of not incredibly expensive software packages developed to provide a substitute, then why should we have…

Germany has a big-nothing economy right now. Compared to that, even a small-software economy is useful. Germany can't live on everyone else's money indefinitely, at some point everyone else is going to get fed up that they have to be paying more tax and higher energy prices because Germany can't sustain itself.

You should read up before making grandiose statements like that. Totally not true. https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2025/01/30/c...

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#167

The authors examples of “Digital Mittelstand” companies are not businesses at all but tiny “creator economy” side projects. These do not scale to 30% of GDP in the same way high value B2B industrial equipment does (in manufacturing you happily pay $100,000 for a piece of machinery because it can turn inputs into more valuable outputs at scale). Instead of coming up with incorrect ideas about what the government shoul…

Europe is dying. It is an old socialist relic, with a completely outdated model of reality. The successes of the extreme left and right shows that the political nobility are done. Sadly europe never realized that low taxes, capitalism and liberty is what drives wealth. I wonder if, in a generation, when the best brains moved to the US, asia and argentina, the continent will finally awake from its socialist slumber? H…

Spain is flooded with Argentinians fleeing. Spain, which isn't even that good. Europe is still a much better place to live to the common people than anywhere else in the world.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has a big-nothing economy right now. Compared to that, even a small-software economy is useful. Germany can't live on everyone else's money indefinitely, at some point everyone else is going to get fed up that they have to be paying more tax and higher energy prices because Germany can't sustain itself.

What? They literally build machines that everybody needs to live. They make everything, all sorts of little of bits you need. If you need a special chemical reactor that resists some weird thing, it's probably from Germany.

Indeed. Zeiss lenses. Medical equipment. Boss. Siemens. The only thing that's really lacking is ict and ai. But that can be fixed

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#169
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably more of cultural difference. It's common in the US to build companies like a lot of houses are build in the US. In the US houses are often build from wood and plaster and have a high chance of being knocked down by a storm. Companies in the US are often build on a ton of dept (and never making a profit is not considered "weird") and have a high chance of being knocked down by a storm. In Europe people l…

US vs. EU building materials is actually locally determined - there's a lot more forest in the vast empty spaces of the US and Canada, hence all the cheap wood. Same for oil. Same for e.g. the UK steel industry. I think people underestimate the extent to which the EU either doesn't have the same level of natural resources, or has used them up. There's a reason the last time that Germany got serious about resource ind…

Wut?

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Europeans can’t figure out new valuable areas where they can contribute to the world, than their system isn’t as clever or morally righteous or fantastic as they think it is. I don't think it follows that unprofitable things are by definition not clever, righteous, or fantastic. This seems like a blinkered, American-capitalist viewpoint.

Profitable and valuable are synonymous. If something is more valuable than the inputs used to make it, then it is profitable to make it. Things being clever, or righteous, or "fantastic" (whatever that means) doesn't mean that people actually value them. That isn't what value means. Something is more valuable if you would give up more to have it. It is less valuable if you would give up less to have it. Basically, no…

I'm wondering from where you get these ideas? Which social media hell hole?
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