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We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

mertbulan.com

71–80 of 244 posts

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#71
The difference isn't mainly in ethos or culture; those startups make services with zero marginal cost, and where growth and eventual near-monopoly is the only successful outcome. Europe lacks investors for those types of startups.

"Mittelstand conditions" are replicated for digital products/services that are 1) expensive to build, 2) are very useful/profitable for customers, and 3) have small/fixed addressable markets.

More sustainable examples would be engineering consultancies building embedded systems for infrastructure, machines, robots, etc.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#72

For start Germany needs better internet connectivity. Getting 1gbps symmetric fiber or 5G coverage is a scifi! Even Romania has better infrastructure!

Yes, that. I regularly travel from Sweden to the Netherlands by train and have gotten into the habit of sending a message from Padborg (Danish-German border) that I'm about to enter Germany so I might not be able to react or have data access for the next 7-8 hours. Coverage is spotty at best, totally absent at worst. This seems to be more pronounced in northern Germany, the west is a bit better but still bad compared to my origin (the Nordic countries) and destination (the Netherlands).

Quo Vadis, wirtschaftswunder? Werden wir es wirklich schaffen?

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#73
post #63

There are a lot of such companies already in Germany. Basically most small/medium sized IT companies in Germany fit that classification. So I don't really see how this is now a new approach. And I'm also not sure what is proposed here to be done now. Invest more into IT infrastructure? That's a goal that many parties claim to do since many years. Many people fully agree with this. However, currently, the main topic i…

> And I'm also not sure what is proposed here to be done now. The article lists 4 things under "What Should Be Done Next?" - Given your don't I think I can also be a bit snarky and ask: Have you read the article?

Yes I read it. I don't think these suggestions really help much, or are really new. E.g. simplify bureaucracy and regulations, that is what most parties already claim to do since many many years. I think many people really want that, but it seems to be difficult to really do this. VAT exemptions is probably also in the program of a couple of parties. English language is already pretty standard in many IT companies in Germany.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#74
The authors examples of “Digital Mittelstand” companies are not businesses at all but tiny “creator economy” side projects.

These do not scale to 30% of GDP in the same way high value B2B industrial equipment does (in manufacturing you happily pay $100,000 for a piece of machinery because it can turn inputs into more valuable outputs at scale).

Instead of coming up with incorrect ideas about what the government should “encourage” from the top down, what if European elites focused on cooperating more with their neighbors to open more opportunities and meanwhile let the peasants (the market) figure out the most productive and profitable uses of their time.

If Europeans can’t figure out new valuable areas where they can contribute to the world, than their system isn’t as clever or morally righteous or fantastic as they think it is. I believe if allowed the opportunity, the people would find this positive-sum value to be created. Who do you think founded all the Mittelstand in the first place?

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#75

The mythical German "Mittelstand" again. This word is absolutely meaningless. It has been used to describe small businesses, but also companies like Robert Bosch GmbH which has 400,000 employees. "Mittelstand" is nothing but a vague idea Germans cling to, so they feel special.

"Mittelstand" is pretty well defined: A privately owned company that values long-term durability higher than short-term profits.

"mitte" is the middle. Those are companies that are contempt with an average size, they don't strive to grow. (Or to "go big or go home", like US VCs would advise.) Also, "Mittelstand" companies are usually family-owned, which means that the CEO cares much more about being able to pass the business on to his kids on 20 years, than about raising today's stock price with buy-backs and dividends. And especially so if you have a niche provider that keeps offering the same services for 10s of years, is run by a tight-knit group of relatives, and cares more about quality than profits, those will proudly advertise themselves as "Mittelstand".

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#76

The mythical German "Mittelstand" again. This word is absolutely meaningless. It has been used to describe small businesses, but also companies like Robert Bosch GmbH which has 400,000 employees. "Mittelstand" is nothing but a vague idea Germans cling to, so they feel special.

I am sure that there are a large number of small business in the field, anayway. It's not a "either or" proposition, either.

The article comes across as naive and idealistic. This was especially odd: "The average German—apart from those who’ve left the country and morphed into “tech bros”—isn’t particularly moved by shareholder value, especially when the Basic Law of Germany begins with “Human dignity shall be inviolable."

I agree with the proposoal to simplify and regulations but this is easier said that done because these are cultural aspects.

The idea that you should be able to start a business without risks or hard work is also perhaps more part of the problem than of the solution:

"A government program could provide salary grants based on experience, allowing these individuals to dedicate time to developing a digital product without compromising their quality of life or financial stability.*"

I would also think that someone who lives and work in Germany ought to be speaking German and would not require the German state to provide paperwork to start a company in English.

Lastly, regarding VAT exemption thresholds we perhaps need to look at the root cause of those exemptions and calls for higher thresholds: VAT rates in Europe are ridiculously high and that is in turn caused by the size of the state.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#77

We must stop associating the European economy with the German economy.

Better still, stop thinking about it as "the European economy" and start thinking in terms of regional and national economies. There is not that much overlap between e.g. the Finnish or Swedish economy and the Portuguese or Greek economy and it does not make much sense to try to push these disparate countries into the same box even if bureaucrats in Brussels would like you to believe so.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#78
post #70

I really like the idea, but I'm not sure how the traditional "Made in Germany" success stories would translate into a digital world. For example Würth is the world leading producer of screws. I think it's a good example of how a lot of these companies make parts. But what are the parts in the digital world? It's libraries and frameworks, and nobody is paying for those. Also the values you mentioned: excellence and st…

Screws are probably primarily not a B2C product , and screw producers probably integrate with their customers' systems and processes in non-trivial ways. I don't know enough about screws to make this concrete.

If there's no market for libraries and frameworks (like there used to be), the next best equivalent appears to be SaaS and software you can buy and run/host yourself. Germany seems to be doing pretty good there, considering SAP.

The problem I see is primarily that most software businesses aim to get out of their niche. I suppose a screw maker is perfectly content just being the number one in screws. A software business is rarely that focused: Better to do a lot of things OK than one thing great. Marketing and sales are the big levers, not quality. Probably because software is largely being sold to people who can't even judge their quality and mostly buy based on vibe. Software is, after all, a pop culture.

So if every piece of software gravitates towards being everything for everyone, and if marketing (money) is the big lever, it's a lot more of a winner takes all environment. That's an excellent environment for strong hustlers. It's a terrible environment for quiet people that care about quality.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#79

What we need in Europe, is protectionism both against US companies and Chinese companies. They have been funded by both country's heavily deficitary budgets and incentives. Just fining Meta and Google a few billions every year isn't enough. Need to either tax all that digital pollution they bring over here. And now they clearly aren't our partners anymore. With China not sharing democratic values and wanting to invad…

They are doing us a favor by not being our partners and not sharing what is left of our values. The discussion would be a lot harder if they stop being our partners 20 years from now.

Rather than protectionism there should be the ambition to build something better or more suitable for the audience. This isn't hard at all. The US corps are trying to build something suitable for everyone which is much harder than a specific demography.

Re: We don't need startups, we need Digital-Mittelstand

#80
Yes, but this already happens, just not in the hn/reddit echo chamber. Most people are not looking/shooting/wanting to fight for billions$ or market leader or whatever; most are happy with a nice life making stuff for local companies. There are tons of regional companies making software/saas/services just in their part of the country (whatever country) and making a nice living for decades.
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