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DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

nytimes.com

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Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#951

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if the question is 'do you think an effort should be made to look for things to cut', I'd say 'yes, of course.' This is such an unbelievably lazy response. Every single person in existence thinks there’s some amount of government waste that we wish were cut and either returned to the citizens or put to better use elsewhere. The interesting and important question which GP poijted out—and which you completely dod…

“Cut all of it” is a serious response. Yes, cut a significant percentage of government spend across the board. Reduce my taxes. Let me decide how and where to reinvest my capital and how and where to give my charity. The fact that DOGE is only focused on the items it has access to is not a logical critique of DOGE’s effort.

“Cut all of it” is a lazy and exceptionally dangerous response.

There are an enormous number of government services for which the benefit to society is straight multiples of the cost. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is an phenomenally efficient way to make sure we all suddenly start paying more.

For a blindingly obvious example, see universal healthcare (or more specifically, our country’s lack of it). As the one developed economy without it, we pay multiples of what other people do for worse results. Consider me not particularly enthusiastic about finding out what else we can start paying more for to receive worse results.

> The fact that DOGE is only focused on the items it has access to is not a logical critique of DOGE’s effort.

Of course it fucking is. Just like it is, was, and continues to be a valid critique that California asking residents to cut back on water use when the aggregate of all urban use counts for about 8% of the water is a pointless waste of time, resources, and political energy.

Instead of actually tackling deficits and government spending, they’re putting on a show while cutting to the bone extremely valuable services we rely on. NOAA and FAA are critical for air travel. NASA, the NSF, and scientific research funding in general are critical for our continued technological dominance and for attracting the best and brightest to our country. The CFPB has done incredible work in protecting individual consumers from the worst of banking practices. The parks service, USFS, and everything else under the department of the interior protect our remaining natural spaces which can never be reclaimed once lost.

This is just a microscopic fraction of what’s being dismantled in front of our eyes, and all for the “benefit” of pointlessly saving relative pennies.

For fuck’s sake, as a high-earning, wealthy taxpayer: tax me more. And anyone who’s in the upper echelons of our economy that isn’t saying this while seeing the conditions the rest of our country and world live in is unbelievably narrow-minded, ignorant, selfish, straight up evil, or more likely a combination of all the above.

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#952
post #84

I think impartial observers have not spent time in actual government bureaucracy. Basically everything will seem like “they’re cutting something important!” Or “they’re stopping critical research!” because every government contract needs justification; so naturally they will all sound good. The data and accounting itself is such bad quality in all cases that it is impossible to be perfect at this; there are entire in…

I don't think the complaint is that all government spending is good or that cutting waste would be bad. The objection is that they're not cutting the kinds of things you're talking about and their approach seems fundamentally unlikely to do so. Finding things like solutions nobody is using or systems that are far more complicated than they need to be is worthwhile if you're goal is removing waste and increasing effic…

Is perfect efficiency really desirable, when increase in efficiency often results in increase in brittleness?

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#953
post #84

I think impartial observers have not spent time in actual government bureaucracy. Basically everything will seem like “they’re cutting something important!” Or “they’re stopping critical research!” because every government contract needs justification; so naturally they will all sound good. The data and accounting itself is such bad quality in all cases that it is impossible to be perfect at this; there are entire in…

I spent a few weeks working at a contractor who specialized in VA contracts. I put my two week notice in after the first few weeks. There’s no way I could “work” like that. They had teams and teams of people doing the job of a single person at a normal startup. I’ve never seen such bureaucratic waste anywhere in the private sector. It made my stint at Microsoft look like a lean startup by comparison. I talked to them…

Are they going to clean the entire house, or will they ignore the parts that benefit their cronies?

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#954

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core question is less about the cuts themselves and more about if we the people are getting what we're paying for. 1) It kinda doesn't matter if it was caused by the pandemic or not, what matters is it needs to be fixed. Cherry-picking "since the 1970s" keeps us in difficult times energy-wise which we've attempted to correct for with more spending. If you go further back, our current ratio is what it was during W…

Are you sure customers pay corporate taxes? Corporate taxes are on profits. I keep hearing corporate taxes are passed on, but I genuinely cannot figure out a mechanism for them to be directly passed on.

Corporations exist to generate profit, they have no other reason for being, and they will do anything to protect those profits - including using any loophole, accounting process, business model, or pricing strategy to protect said profits.

A simple/common form of this subversion is giving the c-suite ungodly salaries such that there are no profits, on the books at least, to be taxed. In that case, and basically all others, the customer is paying the corporate tax because the corporation has shifted all burdens (including tax) away from the protected profit.

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#955

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation on that last point? The amount of people I know who were the first in their family to attend college, and sometimes even graduate high school, makes me question that people are measurably less educated.

I believe it's more the critical thinking piece that's the problem. And, perhaps there has not been a decline there, but we're just witnessing an unprecedented cultural and technology-fueled abuse of an existing lack of reasoning ability (expansive reach, bot farms, algorithms, conspiracy theories, etc). I mean, any actor—including state adversaries—can essentially run military-grade psyops on our population. In a "s…

Sure, but 100 years ago, most cities barely had more than 1 source of news, which was usually controlled by some reach oligarch in their town/the US at large. Most people weren't "thinking critically" about our involvement in WW1 or the development of nuclear weapons.

There's a lot of well-preserved documents, debates, and critical discussions from those periods, but most of those are preserved because they were among elites in the academy or political spheres.

I find it hard to believe the average person in 1925 was more informed or even able to think critically about national and international politics than someone today. It certainly wasn't as if there weren't powerful people who controlled most of the news and communications back then either.

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#956

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation on that last point? The amount of people I know who were the first in their family to attend college, and sometimes even graduate high school, makes me question that people are measurably less educated.

The quality of high school educations have fallen, which is the most important to develop critical thinking. This is measurable when the education level of U.S. high school students is compared in global rankings. On top of that social media has put people in echo chambers and force fed them outrage content. People who are outraged and surrounded by peers who are also outraged are less likely to think critically. I p…

Has the US fallen much in education quality in absolute terms? Or just relative to other countries? And how does that map relative to the percentage of the population being educated at that level?

A world where underperforming people are just pushed out of the path of ever attending high school or college, like some of my friends's parents were, may lead to higher statistical education outcomes for high school education while still being worse for the country at large than having those students attend high school even if they don't make amazing grades.

You bring up "the replacement of newspapers that invite critical thinking by yellow journalism" as if the term Yellow Journalism wasn't literally used to critique one of the major US newspapers over a century ago. Sensationalism and rabblerousing is, if anything, the normal state of news dating back centuries!

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#957
post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core question is less about the cuts themselves and more about if we the people are getting what we're paying for. 1) It kinda doesn't matter if it was caused by the pandemic or not, what matters is it needs to be fixed. Cherry-picking "since the 1970s" keeps us in difficult times energy-wise which we've attempted to correct for with more spending. If you go further back, our current ratio is what it was during W…

> Corporations do not pay corporate tax, their customers and employees do Corporations pay tax on their profits not, revenue. Employees have already been paid and customers have already bought before these taxes are levied. (The first bit is of course more complicated; for example, salaries paid for R&D don't always count as a deductible business expense.) The market price is the market price. If corporations could r…

>The market price is the market price. If corporations could raise prices further (even without new taxes) without losing customers, they would. If corporations end up being taxed more, raising prices in order to "pass on" those taxes will just cause them to lose customers, and end up with lower revenue (and likely profit too), perhaps even more than if they just sucked it up, paid their taxes, and left prices alone.

I agree with part of this. Corporations will raise prices to make more profit whenever there is opportunity to. They exist to make profit, so they will do anything to do that. I also agree that in theory, a small tax increase on one corporation may make them want to take a profit hit versus a customer size hit. However-

- if all the corporations are all paying the same taxes (which hopefully is how it works), they are all able to raise the market price to cover it. They won't have competition - with lower expenses - to lose customer to. The only lost customer will be the one who simply can no longer afford their product.

- Second, as mentioned in other branches, corporations will do anything to protect and increase profit, including finding loopholes, paying the c-suite insane salaries, accounting for asset purchases and depreciations in ways to reduce the on-paper profit, etc. The more the company does this, the more the corporate tax burden becomes a normal cost of goods expense, which is passed on to the customer and the employees (in the form of worse compensation).

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#958
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Number 3 can’t be overstated. Healthcare costs for the exact same care are 2x-3x what they are in Europe. Global health insurance plans usually come in two flavors: 1. Global coverage 2. Global coverage excluding United States (for half the monthly premium of the first plan) The United States in an extreme outlier in terms of cost. This is separate from rationing care. This is separate from even population health (ex…

> The United States in an extreme outlier in terms of cost. This is separate from rationing care. This is separate from even population health (ex. higher obesity rates) Are you sure? People comparing US healthcare costs to European costs don't realize that these are two very different products. The US population is much more unhealthy, yet it has about the same life expectancy as an average European country. This wo…

> yet it has about the same life expectancy as an average European country

Not quite. Let's take, for the sake of quantification, the life expectancy of a developed western European country: France. Considered poor when compared to American wages, it has health care system of average quality when compared to its neighbours. (So this could be done with any other west European country)

2023 life expectancy: 83.5 years.

2023 life expectancy USA: 79.3 years. Which is the same life expectancy as France in 2000/2001.

> They are somewhat more optimized for efficiency and the US healthcare system is much more optimized for outcomes - partly because Americans are so litigious

So by having the "customer" die early the system ensures that they can't be sued..?

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#959
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This framing is a bit far from the actual motivating issue underlying the federal "budget" itself. I think a better question is whether having a federal workforce of 4 million people managed by an unaccountable bureaucracy is in the best interests of any country. If you frame it as simply whether to spend money on this or that or if you're getting comparable value to other countries, then it is inevitable for the sid…

> I think a better question is whether having a federal workforce of 4 million people managed by an unaccountable bureaucracy is in the best interests of any country Is having a federal workforce that's managed by an unelected, and unaccountable, oligarch more in line with the best interests of any country? > Centralized power is very susceptible to grift and corruption. Isn't putting oligarchs with significant confl…

Eh, oligarchs are already in positions of significant power. If you're talking about Elon, then to be accurate, he is not managing the federal workforce, but rather overseeing an audit of it. He himself has no executive powers. Those reside in the elected official (the President). It is also the case that most of the federal workforce is already managed by unelected officials but they are accountable to the President (elected by the people). The problem becomes when the President's assigned administrators are met with widespread #resistance from federal career civil servants who choose to ignore the will of the majority, embodied in the person of the President.

This will all make more sense when you incorporate the concept of "lawfare" into your framework. Laws at this level are very often used as political tools. The courts are not immune to practicing lawfare, either.

The current administration is reducing graft and corruption of necessity because they are breaking up established patronage networks (NED, USAID) and Tammany Hall-style vote harvesting progams (welfare, immigration policy, voter id) that rely on graft and corruption to function. If you understand networks as political weapons then these acts can be understood as disarming your political opponents.

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#960
post #248

For those who want to have a substantive discussion on the federal budget and believe these cuts are justified, I have a few questions (putting aside questions of constitutionality for this thread): 1. There are claims that federal spending is out of control. How do you square that with the fact that spending as a percentage of GDP is only slightly elevated compared to the historical average going back to at least th…

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