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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#161

Post by latexr »

locusofself wrote: post #24

I like this approach to communication, except the the "deadline" part. I'd prefer my reports just let me know if they are working on something which I may want to veto (because I may have more context as to why it's a waste of time or not a priority). Giving a "deadline" to your manager is strange, and almost like a weird, annoying threat. I also would like to think I would give people on my team enough autonomy to m…

Agreed. I would add the “unless I hear differently from you” falls in the same category. You’re already sending an email describing what you’re going to do, of course your boss can object and you’re open to it, that’s exactly the point of informing them of your plans.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#162

Post by [deleted] »

vmurthy wrote: post #94

I like the general idea. I read the book “Start with no” a long time ago and the lessons stuck. The first principle here is that people have an innate need for autonomy and giving them the option to say no gives them peace of mind. Highly recommended. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/689417

[deleted]

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#163

Post by schubart »

Xmd5a wrote: post #123
motorest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.

> If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important.

Sounds even more confrontational.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#164

Post by close04 »

genewitch wrote: post #136
Xmd5a wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.

That's also passive-aggrsssive. "I have scheduled beginning $X on $Date. Documentation:... Please remit any feedback, please and thank you" And in the second example, unrelated to the first scenario: "I had planned to begin $X on $Date, but priorities have shifted and $X is being tabled for now. Documentation:... Please remote any feedback, please and thank you." Don't lie or whatever, or do. I don't, but none of thi…

No matter how it’s formulated it looks exactly like the “opt-out” everyone on HN hates when it’s done to them. It’s effective so it’s great when it works for you not against you.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#165

Post by tracker1 »

motorest wrote: post #153
Xmd5a wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.

> - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. It's still needlessly confrontational. Why are you accusing someone of failing to understand the importance of something? Ask yourself this: do you need someone else's input? If you do not need it, you do not need to ask questions. If you feel the need to request input then in the very least you nee…

I consider it an extension of, "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."

This can work for or against you. If your goal is movement, then waiting at every step for a pedantic discussion with back and forth can kill entropy.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#166

Post by mozzieman »

It is all about backing up this question with confidence before asking it. Not about trust you earn over time but trust each time you ask it.

I require teams to do their own security reviews, that includes requirement gathering before shipping anything. If i get a "Anyone have any objections / concerns question"

I usually know directly if they just bullshitting and only done the minimal viable to get something out and want to be able to say "but i asked" or if they done their due dilligence.If the person only says short what they will do and just broadcast it. "Throws it over the fence". Imho is just bullshit. The people that are good have backed it up with explanations, proper knowledge about different areas what they are doing, presenting their thoughts and make sure stakeholders are informed in person or by good documentation and overall just come across like they know stuff. Then it is okey / good to ask like this to find out if you missed anything.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#167

Post by fendy3002 »

donalhunt wrote: post #92
fendy3002 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a silver bullet for something that needs to be done on a specific timeframe, otherwise it'll be bad. Since the "Boss x do not give approval for it" won't cut in as a reason, and boss x needs to know this before you're doing it. Of course criticality matters. The more critical it is, the more required for you to do a more personal message with said boss, like slack, dms, up to meeting face to face for approval…

This is an important insight. While the "bias towards action" approach works for smaller things, larger efforts may require change management protocols that capture explicit approvals. In regulated industries, you may have no choice but to capture approvals in some official manner (with ink sometimes).

Of course condition and situation matters, as you've said in regulated industries. Be selfish, if you taking action will net you a worse outcome for you, better wait for approval.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#168

Post by closewith »

schubart wrote: post #163
Xmd5a wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.

> If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. Sounds even more confrontational.

Yeah, let's soften it up:

> I'm going to proceed with XYZ in N days. If any of you fucking idiots have a problem with that, then scrawl it down in crayon and flush it down the jacks, which is where you'll end up if you dare question my decisions in future.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#170

Post by magic_hamster »

ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

This sounds like it could result in a chaotic culture where everyone does whatever they want unless actively stopped. For a busy tech lead or staff engineer this sounds like a total nightmare. If you're already asking someone about your plan, there's probably a reason for that and maybe there are limitations or dependencies you're not aware of.
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