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Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

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Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#141

Post by WalterBright »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #127
WalterBright wrote: post #118

I've not seen any video of the crash. Usually, when there's a crash, dash cam or other amatuer video caught it. Which leads to my repeated bafflement as to why there are no video cameras constantly pointed at flight ops at the airport. If every 7-11 can have a security cam recording hi-def 24/7, why can't a couple of these be mounted in the tower pointed at the tarmac?

How do you know there aren’t any? It seems a lot more likely the security managers aren’t in a hurry to release them to the public.

> How do you know there aren’t any?

Have you ever seen one?

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#142

Post by AnimalMuppet »

apercu wrote: post #85
kanbankaren wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, this happened in Toronto, Canada.

Yea. Totally man. A country in which I am a citizen. But an American airline and in a time where aspects of society are trying to deregulate everything. (maybe I should qualify all of my internet comments that I spent 29 years in the US, then 18 years in Canada, and now like 2 years back in the US. Would that help?)

No. What would help is explaining why the US laying off people in the FAA causes a crash in Toronto, Canada.

Your citizenship and residence don't matter. Your lack of an explanation on that point matters. It renders your initial claim invalid.

I mean, look, there may be reason to suspect that certain US incidents are related to the layoffs and chaos. But this article isn't about a US incident, and what you're saying seems to be completely off topic. It looks like you have an axe to grind (perhaps a reasonable axe...) and you found a semi-related topic, so you're trying to grind it here, even though it doesn't actually fit.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#143

Post by mikeyouse »

jkubicek wrote: post #58
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in addition to competitiveness, complete information must be available. The customers must know that the barbers are skimping on barbicide, and also have a full understanding of the consequences of that. It's not a default situation, and a lot of regulations are about providing that transparency so that customers can make an informed decision.

One of the many realizations that pushed me away from libertarianism is that I don't want to research every part of my daily life. Today in the US, I can * Buy any brand of meat in any grocery store and be confident it won't make my family sick. * Visit any barber and be confident I won't get a weird scalp infection * Fly with any airline and be confident I'll get to my destination alive This confidence is incredibly…

There are a few other issues that prevent True Libertarianism from ever actually being possible, namely you’d need unlimited liability and juries that could appropriately assign blame and penalties but you’re still left with the principal-agent issue where a highly compensated exec could make buckets of money doing unethical business if only the firm is responsible for the outcomes. We’re much better off with minimum safety standards and relying on Capitalism to drive prices and allocate resources inside that ‘arena’.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#144

Post by MichaelZuo »

WalterBright wrote: post #141
MichaelZuo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know there aren’t any? It seems a lot more likely the security managers aren’t in a hurry to release them to the public.

> How do you know there aren’t any? Have you ever seen one?

If you mean in the terminal, then yes?

I’ve been to Pearson plenty of times. They could all have malfunctioned at the time, but I doubt it.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#145

Post by toss1 »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #120
toss1 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "subtle" hacking is removing the regulations requiring safe maintenance and procedures, removing people responsible for maintaining and implementing the regulations, and removing the people responsible for controlling the traffic safely. In a highly complex system, all the hacking you need is to allow the ordinary chaotic systems to run more wild and stochastic errors will degrade the system with less traceabilit…

So are you saying that the root cause of this crash (and the others I suppose) is something that happened in the last 4 weeks?

Only that that is a more likely explanation than "subtle hacking".

It could of course all be coincidence, or it could have to do with consequences of 1) election of a wrecking-ball administration hell-bent on destroying all regulations, and 2) terrorizing the entire federal workforce including the Air Traffic Controllers.

The heaviest-casualty US crash in 16 years happened shortly after a "you should all resign now" memo went out along with news of plans to massively fire federal workers AND a manager in the control tower had one controller handling multiple types of flights so another could go home early, in this case including the military helicopter and the AA5342 flight. A significant discrepancy between ATC and helicopter altitude was seen in the conversations and not followed-up. It is so far-fetched that a controller handling the duties of two and worried about his job would miss something, and the root cause being chaos at the top?

Similarly, initial reports mention maintenance issues as possibly implicated in today's Delta crash; considering the wrecking-ball-to-regulations of the incoming administration, it is no stretch to think Delta mgt might well have started cutting maintenance expenses shortly after 05-Noveber-2024. Who is going to notice and fine them?

In any case, both coincidence and a wrecking-ball administration are more likely than "subtle hacking".

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#146

Post by 747-8F »

WalterBright wrote: post #133
hinkley wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up stress to failure tests on commercial airplanes. They know how much peak load is supposed to be for the airframe, then they go well beyond it to see how the plane fails. Generally you want the wings to break not the fuselage. You can in a lot of situations land a plane with 1.5 wings. But once the spine cracks you’re just a ballistic object.

The parts are designed for "ultimate load" which is 150% of the worst case maximum load expected to ever see in service. I used to work at Boeing on the 757 stabilizer trim system. There's the design group and the stress group. I was in the design group, the stress group double checks the design work. One day the stress group called me on the carpet, and asked me why my designs consistently just barely exceeded 150%.…

Awesome! Thanks for commenting.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#147

Post by left-struck »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #105
crazygringo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because the ground is more stable than the air doesn't mean there aren't train collisions. Air travel actually has a lower fatality rate per mile than trains do. Rail crossings can be dangerous places.

I feel more comfortable with the thought of applying the emergency brakes on a train versus applying the emergency brakes on an aeroplane.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if aircraft can generally slow down faster than trains, assuming level flight and grade (or the same climb rate)

It’s not really fair though, because the aircraft has so much force acting against it from how fast it’s moving. If somehow a jet was moving at train speeds and could only use its aerodynamic surfaces to slow down, it would probably take a while.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#148

Post by bombcar »

WalterBright wrote: post #121
alistairSH wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a report that it was after touchdown. I’m guessing wind, ice, or something else moved the plane off the centerline and into a crab, it hooked a wheel off the pavement, and cartwheeled. 100% conjecture at this point, just seems like a possible chain of events.

Too bad the airport couldn't find the funds to put a dash cam in the tower. Grump grump grump.

Delta could have also stuck a few GoPros on this thing before doing a barrel roll.

Does nobody have a sense for the dramatic?

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#149

Post by culi »

WalterBright wrote: post #118

I've not seen any video of the crash. Usually, when there's a crash, dash cam or other amatuer video caught it. Which leads to my repeated bafflement as to why there are no video cameras constantly pointed at flight ops at the airport. If every 7-11 can have a security cam recording hi-def 24/7, why can't a couple of these be mounted in the tower pointed at the tarmac?

Seems like it crashed pretty far away from any residential areas

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#150

Post by culi »

donsupreme wrote: post #27
guardiangod wrote: post #5

That's incredible. The plane literally turned over and burnt but no casualty. The flight staff must have done as amazing job keeping everyone calm and helped everyone get out of the upside, burning plane.

3 in critical condition so I read.

I also read everyone is expected to survive. Hope those in critical condition are able to make a full recovery
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