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What? 346 people died in the two 737 MAX crashes in 2019 and 2020, but I guess three people getting injured is a lot more major since it happened in the country next door to the only country that counts.
Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
111–120 of 750 posts
Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
How did the plane flip? Do we have any reason to believe it could be reasonably avoided with regulations?
Maintenance is a regulatory problem. Otherwise it’s a race to the bottom looking for someone to sign off on a flight.
Is there any evidence that this incidence was due to poor regulation?
Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#113AVherald has a page for this already: https://avherald.com/h?article=52439b47&opt=0
VASAviation has a short stitch of relevant recordings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUC8h4pkcs
Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
True but I have a feeling it might be designed to rip off in this situation. I'm more surprised the wing rupture didn't cause a fire/explosion because this is where most of the fuel is stored.
I seriously, seriously doubt it. The wings are so utterly critical to flight I can’t possibly imagine any situation they’d be engineered to snap off under. Further, that’s where the fuel is and any crash involving a wing rupture is dramatically more dangerous given the risk of fire. Hell even in a crash landing like this you want the plane to stay upright and stable.
> The wings are so utterly critical to flight I can’t possibly imagine any situation they’d be engineered to snap off under.
I don't know enough about the details of the CRJ-900 to say for certain, but in general aerospace engineering does include considerations of this sort, where if a component breaks off you want to ensure that it separates in a specific way.
from an Admiral Cloudberg article [0] about El-Al 1862 [1]:
> The Boeing 747 engine pylon is attached to the wing by four fittings: one at the front, one in the back, and two in the middle (or midspar). Each of these fittings consists of a wing-mounted male lug and a pylon-mounted female lug, which are connected by a fuse pin. The four fuse pins are the weakest part of the pylon, but this is by design. Every airplane system and structure contains planned failure sequences which work to minimize damage in the event of an overload. In the case of the 747’s engine pylons, the fuse pins were designed to fail at a lower load threshold than the fittings themselves, ensuring that if the engine is torn off the wing — perhaps due to extreme turbulence, or a gear-up landing — the fuse pins will fail first, causing the engine to separate cleanly without ripping open the fuel tanks located directly above it. In theory, this should allow an engine to break off upon reaching its design load limit without starting a fire or otherwise compromising the plane’s ability to fly.
0: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/concrete-and-fire-the-cr...
Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm pro airline regulation given the current state of the market. But you could also argue the airline industry is fairly concentrated. There are only so many airlines. If a Delta flight crashes, you might still fly Delta again in the future, because there are only so many options. Now imagine if there were as many airlines as restaurants. If one Delta flight messes up in any way, people would never fly them again. T…
“They go out of business”… is that way to say they rebrand themselves and blend in with the crowd? As that seems highly likely with a theoretically crowded but not regulated airline market.
Yeah, damaging their brand would only matter if their brand was worth a lot, which would only be the case if there weren’t too many airlines for people to keep track of.
Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did it roll after landing or before landing?
I saw a report that it was after touchdown. I’m guessing wind, ice, or something else moved the plane off the centerline and into a crab, it hooked a wheel off the pavement, and cartwheeled. 100% conjecture at this point, just seems like a possible chain of events.
Toronto Pearson had wind gusts of 60km/h today.
Edit: listing to the ATC audio I think they said gusts in the 30s (man do they ever speak fast and mumble! Enunciate damn it! Unique New York), which is markedly slower than what the Apple Weather app reported for Pearson.
Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#117[flagged]
This was landing in a 30+ mph crosswind in one of the smallest commercial passenger aircraft
CRJ-900s have a crosswind limit of ~37 knots sustained (~42 mph) (though I'm seeing different numbers in a few different places, it maybe a little lower) in dry/bare conditions, and can be lower still on slippery runways. Reported winds were ~30 mph sustained with 40 mph gusts. Plausible this was a factor. I will be interested to read the report.
Edit: from an avherald comment:
> Tower ATC alert to Medevac :”Wind 270 Gusting 33”
(Runway 23 is at 230 degrees, so the wind is at 40 degrees relative to the approach.)
> CRJ 900 X Wind Limits:
> • Wet runway: 22 knots for takeoff and landing
> • Fair braking action: 20 knots for takeoff and landing
> • Poor braking action: 15 knots for takeoff and landing
> • High minimums status for PIC: 25 knots for takeoff and landing
> • High minimums status for SIC: 15 knots for takeoff and landing
> Crosswind estimation: > The maximum crosswind component considers the wind's speed and direction. For example, a 30-degree crosswind has a maximum limit of 50% of the wind speed.
> So here a 40-degree Crosswind, gusting, wet/contaminated Runway with 2” packed snow, 1-2 inches wet snow, Blowing Snow and possible shear all add up to probably exceeding Limits.
Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#118I've not seen any video of the crash. Usually, when there's a crash, dash cam or other amatuer video caught it.
Which leads to my repeated bafflement as to why there are no video cameras constantly pointed at flight ops at the airport.
If every 7-11 can have a security cam recording hi-def 24/7, why can't a couple of these be mounted in the tower pointed at the tarmac?
Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#119Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport
#120Starting to wonder of subtle hacking is involved.
The "subtle" hacking is removing the regulations requiring safe maintenance and procedures, removing people responsible for maintaining and implementing the regulations, and removing the people responsible for controlling the traffic safely. In a highly complex system, all the hacking you need is to allow the ordinary chaotic systems to run more wild and stochastic errors will degrade the system with less traceabilit…
So are you saying that the root cause of this crash (and the others I suppose) is something that happened in the last 4 weeks?