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Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

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Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#61

Post by matthest »

vkou wrote: post #53
matthest wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, in reality, barbers (at least in the US) are not dangerous places. If a barber starts acting in a way that makes their customers come down with infections, customers will take their business to the other barber down the street. If this new barber does the same, you will simply go to the next barber. In this scenario, the first barber to treat their customers well (in a manner that does not pass on infections…

That's a beautiful theory that completely falls apart when cause and effect between bad behaviour and consequences is not immediately clear to the person buying the service. Which, in the real world, is the case with almost everything. Vendors don't tend to cheat or cut corners or perform malfeasance on shit that's easy to spot . Worse yet, the customer often can't tell the difference between malfeasance and bad luck…

It's not so much a theory as it is an attempt to understand what we already observe in the real world.

Why is it that restaurants, barbers, car washes, and other small business industries have thrived for so long despite minimal regulation?

One reason is the high competition. If you've ever run a restaurant, you know the importance of making customers happy. Because customers have so many other options to choose from. They can easily take their business elsewhere. So you have to perform.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#62

Post by jkubicek »

vkou wrote: post #53
matthest wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, in reality, barbers (at least in the US) are not dangerous places. If a barber starts acting in a way that makes their customers come down with infections, customers will take their business to the other barber down the street. If this new barber does the same, you will simply go to the next barber. In this scenario, the first barber to treat their customers well (in a manner that does not pass on infections…

That's a beautiful theory that completely falls apart when cause and effect between bad behaviour and consequences is not immediately clear to the person buying the service. Which, in the real world, is the case with almost everything. Vendors don't tend to cheat or cut corners or perform malfeasance on shit that's easy to spot . Worse yet, the customer often can't tell the difference between malfeasance and bad luck…

It also falls apart when the consequences of bad behavior are death. The satisfaction of showing everyone exactly how unsafe Airline X is, is a small consolation if my family is dead.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#63

Post by chrisco255 »

RachelF wrote: post #56
guardiangod wrote: post #5

That's incredible. The plane literally turned over and burnt but no casualty. The flight staff must have done as amazing job keeping everyone calm and helped everyone get out of the upside, burning plane.

It also looks like a wing has been ripped off. That passengers could survive an accident involving so much force is surprising.

Did it roll after landing or before landing?

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#64

Post by matthest »

marcusb wrote: post #60
matthest wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a half-Libertarian, the problem with a lot of libertarian logic is that it's too black and white. Less government/regulation is good if and only if the underlying market is highly competitive. High competition protects consumers. Examples: restaurants, barbers, tailors, spas, almost anywhere small businesses exist. All ancient, well-functioning industries that are comparatively minimally regulated. The problem wit…

I guess I’m only 1/4 libertarian. I don’t think competition is enough. The risk of harm needs to be balanced as well. With airplanes, you have not only the risk to paying customers, but to bystanders who in many cases cannot be made whole in the event of an accident (i.e., you might get a financial settlement if an airplane crashes into your house, but that won’t bring your family members who were in the house back t…

I'm pro airline regulation given the current state of the market.

But you could also argue the airline industry is fairly concentrated. There are only so many airlines. If a Delta flight crashes, you might still fly Delta again in the future, because there are only so many options.

Now imagine if there were as many airlines as restaurants. If one Delta flight messes up in any way, people would never fly them again. They'd go out of business.

Of course, a market with as many airlines as restaurants isn't practical in the current day (maybe when AI robots become feasible). Hence, agree that airline regulations are necessary.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#66

Post by wkat4242 »

guardiangod wrote: post #5

That's incredible. The plane literally turned over and burnt but no casualty. The flight staff must have done as amazing job keeping everyone calm and helped everyone get out of the upside, burning plane.

Yeah, a similar thing happened in Cork and half the passengers died. The operators were huge clowns though. Of course Delta is a legit operation.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#67

Post by vkou »

matthest wrote: post #61
vkou wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a beautiful theory that completely falls apart when cause and effect between bad behaviour and consequences is not immediately clear to the person buying the service. Which, in the real world, is the case with almost everything. Vendors don't tend to cheat or cut corners or perform malfeasance on shit that's easy to spot . Worse yet, the customer often can't tell the difference between malfeasance and bad luck…

It's not so much a theory as it is an attempt to understand what we already observe in the real world. Why is it that restaurants, barbers, car washes, and other small business industries have thrived for so long despite minimal regulation? One reason is the high competition. If you've ever run a restaurant, you know the importance of making customers happy. Because customers have so many other options to choose from…

Boar's Head is performing just fine, despite having the walls of their meatpacking facilities covered in flies and maggots. That killed eleven people last year, but guess what, every friggin' deli in the country is prominently displaying their products, and sales are doing great. And for all I know, half the other brands on the shelf are owned and operated by them.

If it weren't for regulators, that facility would still be operating and poisoning people. And the reason it got so bad was because regulator alarm bells were ignored for two years.

I wouldn't even know that they were poisoning people if it weren't for regulation. And while this has lost me as a customer for life from them, what am I going to do when the other giant national meatpacker turns out to be doing the same damn thing?

Not eat meat, I guess. It'll be a libertarian success story.

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#68

Post by kylehotchkiss »

mikeyouse wrote: post #10
haunter wrote: post #6

Video from a passanger, the hull is upside down! https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=617972644350232

I know they need to control any possibility of a fire but man would it be a rude awakening to escape a significant plane crash, release your seatbelt while hanging upside down, make it to the exit door and then get sprayed in the face with cold water on a February day in Toronto.

They were flying from Minneapolis though. Maybe that’s just normal February weather for them?

Re: Plane crashes, overturns during landing at Toronto airport

#69

Post by wkat4242 »

RachelF wrote: post #56
guardiangod wrote: post #5

That's incredible. The plane literally turned over and burnt but no casualty. The flight staff must have done as amazing job keeping everyone calm and helped everyone get out of the upside, burning plane.

It also looks like a wing has been ripped off. That passengers could survive an accident involving so much force is surprising.

True but I have a feeling it might be designed to rip off in this situation.

I'm more surprised the wing rupture didn't cause a fire/explosion because this is where most of the fuel is stored.

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