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Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

lukeplant.me.uk

71–80 of 89 posts

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#71

The author is critical primarily of Elm's governance and processes, and claims that these are what killed the project. I don't think that's entirely true. There was a recent interview with the creator of Elm here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SUM4869ODc I'd encourage everyone to watch that as a grain of salt to TFA. It seems like the project leader felt he was being taken advantage of, and was just not getting ou…

They threw people out of the community if they even created forks of the language, and they literally hard coded in their buddies' projects to use compiler features that everyone else couldn't. "Rules for thee but not for me" does not inspire much confidence in using a new niche language, much less using it in production.

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#72
post #52

The author is critical primarily of Elm's governance and processes, and claims that these are what killed the project. I don't think that's entirely true. There was a recent interview with the creator of Elm here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SUM4869ODc I'd encourage everyone to watch that as a grain of salt to TFA. It seems like the project leader felt he was being taken advantage of, and was just not getting ou…

> I'd encourage everyone to watch that as a grain of salt to TFA. It seems like the project leader felt he was being taken advantage of, and was just not getting out as much as he was putting in. That's two different topics. The work situation Evan had with NRI is completely unrelated to what he and the core team decided to shape the community into, which is the subject of TFA's criticism. > That's his decision to ma…

> For these reasons, I can't advise people to touch anything Evan does in the future.

> I guess you haven't been personally contacted by a member of the core team trying to steer you into changing course on a technical topic. That interaction was not delightful.

I agree, the community itself has a sort of toxic positivity to it, where criticisms are verboten and one must act like everything is good.

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#73
post #41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too. It’s one of the big “could’ve been” in my opinion. Though I’m convinced it didn’t reach critical mass purely because of community management issues mentioned in the post. Too many people just threw their hands in the air and divested from Elm because of it. Not everybody wrote a blog post about it.

While those community management issues probably didn't help, I don't think Elm's failure to break out can be placed purely on their shoulders. The big reason why it - and all the other typed/functional compile to JS languages (PureScript, Reason, etc.) - remained niche is because TypeScript came along. It integrated with the ecosystem more seamlessly, was instantly comfortable for JS devs, and was backed by MS who g…

TypeScript is as old as Elm, though. Arguably more so when you consider prod deployments.

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#74
post #44

Tangentially, does anyone know how to actually get anything done with rescript? I feel like I would love it. It seems pretty darn awesome. But getting started on a MacBook Air 2018 seems like an exercise in defeat. Building the toolchain takes ages, I have tried twice just getting started and never got to compiling any examples. Is anyone using rescript for anything?

I want to use rescript but the unit testing story seems non-existent, there's some vague mentions of using Jest which is just an awful choice. If there's a way pf using Vitest with it, or something at all, that would be good.

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#75

The author is critical primarily of Elm's governance and processes, and claims that these are what killed the project. I don't think that's entirely true. There was a recent interview with the creator of Elm here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SUM4869ODc I'd encourage everyone to watch that as a grain of salt to TFA. It seems like the project leader felt he was being taken advantage of, and was just not getting ou…

If the features were actually cut, then that would be a separate discussion point. However, that was not the case, the author directly says that the features are still there but restricted to blessed set of users. So, author considers elm to be crippleware

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#76

I think this post captures the wave of entitlement among a group of Elm participants of that era that led to what looks like catastrophic burnout in evancz, Elm's creator. It's been a while since I watched them, and I recommend his talks, but at least one or two of his talks are centered around what is basically unfair expectations. In one talk, [bad paraphrasing, but] he compares how people's expectations of him and…

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the anti-forking sentiment among the community and how tight the governance structure of the project is. Open source is hard, and people will always have unfair expectations of open source, but if I'm to take the article at face on the forking drama, what's so bad about letting people tinker with it and release their own forks of Elm? If you're burned out, what's the harm in le…

Because it means having to give up control and accept that other people are going to contribute - even when they don't follow your own long-term vision.

The Elm Vision is that every library should be infinitely powerful, trivial for novices to learn, and written 100% in Elm. Any deviation from this is seen as a failure of the entire Elm project and a personal embarrassment. The problem is that these standards are way too high and essentially impossible to achieve for any nontrivial library.

The biggest risk of letting other people step is that they may succeed. They're going to write code which is incredibly useful to a lot of people, and it's going to become popular. But those developers aren't strictly following the Elm Vision. They are pragmatic, and they are willing to cut some corners in order to actually ship something. This of course leads to difficult questions like "It works great in library XYZ, why don't we just adopt that in Core Elm?". But you can't, because it breaks your Elm Vision, and you don't have infinite time and money to reinvent the wheel for dozens of core web features until it is 100% perfect according to your Vision. You're rapidly losing grip, and people start talking about a fork.

Elm is becoming a success, but your Elm Vision is rapidly degrading and at risk of failing completely. You can't let them fork. You must maintain control. Your Vision must survive, and it's the only way. You've spent so much time and effort on this. You can't let it fail. It's your life's work. You don't want all that effort to go to waste. You don't want to be a failure. We just have to make sure everyone understands the Vision, and everything will work out okay. We just have to properly educate the dissenters and all will be fine.

---

I don't live in Evan's head, so I'm not going to claim this is his train of thought. But if you're looking for a reason not to let other people step in, here's one possible explanation for you.

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#77

I asked "Ask HN: Is Elm dead" in 2022 with mixed results. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31485011 IMO it's safe to say that Elm is dead and won't come back with this attitude of the core team (which is not the only problem of the language). We never switched to Elm 0.19 from 0.18 but moved on to rewrite in Svelte 5 with TypeScript and never looked back.

I saw these threads pop up here and there over the years, always funny to read comments (even in this very thread!) about how (paraphrasing) "good ideas take time" and "the creator shouldn't add everything people are asking for into the language," meanwhile the last release is still 0.19 in 2018 and I honestly don't know what Evan and the core team have been doing with regards to Elm since then. There's a vast gulf b…

Like even no updates since 2018 might be ok if Evan et all communicated more about the goals and direction of the project

Evan especially wrote and spoke a lot about his philosophy re: the project which I think can be fairly summarized as “everyone just sit down and shut up.” But that’s not a lot to go on when trying to evaluate if a project has staying power, mature governance, and so on.

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#79
I don't like this kind of diatribe.

Evan this, Evan that.

Yes, if the license on the thing is open source, it is open source.

People don't owe you being in their community or whatever.

Fork it, get your shit working, don't tell anyone.

When you fork, change the name. Even GNU projects prohibit forking under the same name; you can't fork GNU Emacs and call your forked project GNU Emacs.

Re: Why I'm leaving Elm (2020)

#80
post #33

Elm is not dead. Here some recent commits: https://github.com/search?q=stars%3A%3E1+language%3Aelm&type... Since Elm compiles to JavaScript, all the new development features from JavaScript, HTML, and CSS are also instantly available in Elm. I.e. it's not necessary to change Elm all the time to keep it up to date with the web platform. For non-stop Elm content check out all the communities at https://elm-lang.org/com…

It may not be dead, but it does seem a bit stagnant. Based on Google Trends at least ( https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge... ), Elm has the same general interest level as it did five years ago (despite going up a bit in-between).

Most people searching for "elm" are researching elm trees, not the language - the highest search activity was in May 2010, before Elm existed.
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