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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#461

Post by chefandy »

analog31 wrote: post #458
musicale wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There can even be competition for those lousy adjunct positions.

Indeed, and those positions have had semi-legitimate purposes in the past but have now become a treadmill. For instance, they often served as "academic spouse" jobs. I have a friend who had an English degree, and his wife was a high level science professor. Teaching classes wasn't hopelessly taxing, and they kept re-upping his contract year after year. The flexible schedule allowed him to manage their kids. I used an…

I worked for a household-name-prestigious school (not as an academic) and they essentially used adjuncts for their cash-cow open enrollment classes knowing that people that were passionate and/or wanted to get the big name on their resume would essentially work for free compared to what even full-time non-tenured faculty got. They made a lot of noise about the university “community” and wellness but I guess that didn’t include adjuncts. It wasn’t UPenn, but the conditions are similar:

https://www.openculture.com/2013/09/death-of-an-adjunct-a-so...

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#462

Post by xanderlewis »

darth_avocado wrote: post #257
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money centric place. It’s not HN. It’s the fact that doing PHD is only a reasonable choice if you either want to get into academia long term or you come from wealth. (Historically science and research was a rich people thing, and only became accessible once student loans were more accessible) I genuinely considered doing PhD after my Masters degree.…

> PHD is only a reasonable choice if you either want to get into academia long term or you come from wealth.

‘The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.’

- George Bernard Shaw

I was going to say something in my own words, but I don't think I can do better.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#463

Post by xanderlewis »

herval wrote: post #438
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

It feels like YC population these days is mostly employees of mid-to-large tech companies trying to get rich out of RSUs. It used to be more about founders and wannabe founders, but the attitude shifted through the years to a mix of cynical money-grabbing attitude, so it's unsurprising that anything that doesn't mean "higher TC" is unpopular (except for side projects involving hardware, for some reason)

It's supposed to be populated by hackers (in the general sense). But it certainly isn't now — if it ever was.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#464

Post by xanderlewis »

Gollapalli wrote: post #439
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

I wanted to do exactly this, and was told many many times to rethink it.

And you listened? Stop listening.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#465

Post by xanderlewis »

__rito__ wrote: post #286
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

Forget money and being rich. What about a decent stable life where you are not struggling, and actually can start a family before turning, say, 35? I don't think it can be supported by academia anymore. I just don't want to go through 5-10 years of PhD, then two postdocs, and then start a job that is by no means tenured. And PhD isn't really a place for satiating your unfettered, unhinged curiosity. You have to do re…

> What about a decent stable life where you are not struggling, and actually can start a family before turning, say, 35?

I suspect you are an American who doesn't know much about the outside world. Here in the UK, for example, you can finish a PhD in three years (so you could be around 25!).

> And PhD isn't really a place for satiating your unfettered, unhinged curiosity.

Try stopping me! Seriously.

> You have to do research along your advisor's line of inquiry, look at funding prospects, churn out papers at a cutthroat pace, and then deal with politics.

This is simply not true in general. Perhaps it's true in the more woolly, fashion and politics-driven disciplines.

> If you want a FAANG job, you can get that without a PhD.

I mean, no shit...

> at 33.

Again — I don't know where this idea that a PhD takes '5-10 years' comes from. It's nonsense.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#466

Post by xanderlewis »

pinko wrote: post #171
declan_roberts wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference between a PhD and a hobby is money, or the presumption of it indirectly (certain jobs, etc) Or else we just call it pursing our natural hobbies and interests. You don't need to go to school for that. If you didn't need more money you wouldn't seek the accreditation.

In many disciplines, it is almost impossible to get oneself into an environment anywhere remotely as rich in collective expertise, resources, and academic-social interaction as a proper graduate research program. There are exceptions (e.g., aspects of tech where money can be made, aspects of social science that intersect with public policy or activism, etc.) but they are rare.

You're exactly right. The ill-informed commenters here seem to think everything is about 'AI' and 'tech'. Of course you don't need a PhD to publish bullshit experiments on language models and unwarranted pontification — but try becoming a serious pure mathematician without a PhD.

But I guess the retort of the average tech bro HNer will be something like: 'we don't need pure mathematicians — just learn Rust and you'll make way more money'.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#467

Post by xanderlewis »

shae wrote: post #268
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

I love doing research on subjects that excite me, but I found that joining a PhD program would mean I would only get to work on what my advisor found exciting. If you get lucky and find a PI that is interested in exactly the same thing, you're good. You might get lucky enough to find someone who is interested in something near what you want. Most likely, you will be assigned the thing you do for your PhD.

> joining a PhD program would mean I would only get to work on what my advisor found exciting.

No, it wouldn't.

> Most likely, you will be assigned the thing you do for your PhD.

Sometimes. Often not.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#468

Post by xanderlewis »

fastball wrote: post #266
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

You don't need to pursue a PhD to do research, which I think underlies some of the pushback. If you don't care about the credentials or being an career academic, a doctoral program can add a lot of friction for little benefit if the only motivator is passion for the subject.

> You don't need to pursue a PhD to do research

...in some subjects (particularly those that are popular here on HN). Not in general. Be careful with such sweeping statements.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#469

Post by xanderlewis »

spicyusername wrote: post #402
jvanderbot wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. I was neither a nepo baby or aspiring monk. What I was, was a kid from a non academic family who wanted more than my small town education could provide. I wanted to push myself to learn at a deeper level and prove it by becoming one of a different crowd of technologists. Maybe these are misguided motivations but they were undeniable and not at all about asceticism or idle riches. It was absolutely wor…

I think it's hard for some people to understand why other people would choose to be poor. And so it must be that people who choose to get a PhD come from means.

When the choice is between being (perhaps, somewhat) money-poor and being intellectually poor, it's easy to understand. But not everyone is wired that way.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#470

Post by xanderlewis »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #398
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

" might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research" Dude, you got-a eat.

Yes. That's why funding exists.
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