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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#931

Post by aezart »

bebop wrote: post #92
galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

I work for a company that is open source and has a large community. I blows my mind (and often aggravates me) how rude some people can be. For some reason people feel that it is appropriate to throw barbs in their issue reports. Please to everyone out there, if you find an issue and want to report it (hurray open source!) please be kind with your words. There are real people on the other side of the issue. Always rem…

I think I kind of get it. By the time someone actually gets to the point of filing an issue report, they are at the end of their rope. They have tried everything they can think of. They have googled and found no one else having the same problem, or fixes that don't work, or people saying "why would anyone need that feature". They feel like they're being gaslit, their time is being wasted, and that the developers are intentionally antagonizing them. And then the form to submit the issue has way too many fields and comes across as very adversarial.

That's certainly how I felt when trying to get my drawing tablet to work properly under Linux Mint, although in my case I skipped filing an issue and just gave up and went back to Windows.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#932

Post by talldayo »

jmull wrote: post #189
skydhash wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would make Macs more attractive as developer machines, and I don't see how it would disadvantage them. The only development they want is development inside XCode. Anything else is a hard no.

Are there a lot of dev tools that run on linux but not on Macs?

glances at OpenCL, CUDA, Nvidia drivers, Vulkan, strace, gdb, Docker, DXVK and valgrind

Define "a lot" and we can get closer to a common understanding.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#933

Post by naasking »

bezier-curve wrote: post #615
naasking wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Provoking up a mob on social media will not endear you to anyone. You're just making the gatekeeper's jobs harder, and since their job is hard enough, they will simply gatekeep you to simplify things. Regardless of whether you think the project should be maintained differently, that's not your call, that's their call. Fork it if you want different policies.

> Provoking up a mob Isn't that also what Linus is doing but on a professional forum, which is even worse? The issue comes down to de-escalation, and there wasn't enough on both sides. It's also not unreasonable to expect more from a figure head who is a role model in open-source development in general.

A maintainer's job is to keep contributors on track and in line so the project moves in the right direction, and he did so on the forum in which it's supposed to happen. Not sure what the issue is.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#934

Post by armchairhacker »

jodrellblank wrote: post #924
armchairhacker wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard "Linus Torvalds has refused to decide whether to accept or reject Rust, and this is a leadership failure". Maybe I'm don't know the situation enough, but I think he's not deciding because he has no idea. The "wrong" option may create far more consequences than the "right" one (so he can't e.g. flip a coin) but he has no idea which is "right". Torvalds has spent so long working with C, even if he went out o…

> " but ensure that all future Rust compatibility issues are handled by Rust developers " But how? One of these: - The C developer needs to know enough Rust to know which changes will affect Rust, contact the Rust developers and explain the change and wait. Extra work and delay they do not want. - The C developer does not need to know any Rust, but must be doing Rust builds, and if something breaks then contact the R…

Yeah, I don't think there's a solution, otherwise someone would've thought of it.

I'm now thinking the solution is "no Rust in the kernel, but we promise to revisit in X years" (then if in X years the picture isn't clearer, revisit in X more years). As someone who greatly prefers Rust, it's unfortunate, but the alternative adds lots of complexity (IMO more than Rust's type system removes) and that's too big an issue.

Moreover, the would-be-contributors who use Rust can (and IMO should) unite and fork the project, creating a "Rusty-Linux" which would be the base for many distros like Linux is the base for all distros. If the fork ends up higher-quality than Linux, especially if Rust adoption keeps growing and C usage starts shrinking, in X years (or 2X, or 3X, etc.) Rust will be so clearly beneficial that nay-sayers will be overpowered (or even convinced), and Rusty-Linux will become Linux.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#935

Post by caycep »

darthrupert wrote: post #867
tcmart14 wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a few reasons. For Darwin, there are a few small projects but I think they are all functionally dead. The benefit with Linux, or even the BSDs here is, sure you gotta port to the hardware, but you should get a good set of user land stuff running for 'free' after that. Lots of programs just need to be compiled to target arm64 and they will at the very minimum function a little bit. Then you can have package m…

Why insist on developing in Rust? I mean, I see how it's much cooler and actually better than something like C, but people are hugely underestimating how difficult it is to change the established language of a 3 decade old project. If Rust is the point you get up from the bed in the morning, why don't you focus on Redox and make it the new Linux? Redox today is much more than Linux was in 1991 so it's not like you wo…

would be kinda neat if they made redox a drop in kernel replacement, kind of like MkLinux back in the old Apple days

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#936

Post by anon8644667533 »

subjectsigma wrote: post #272
rdtsc wrote: post #209

A person can be in a tough spot personally and then things seem to spiral out of control around them because that just cannot be 100% isolated from professional stuff or other spheres of life. It seems like this might have happened to Hector based on the post. We've all been there and that part is completely understandable. > I get that some people might not have liked my Mastodon posts. Yes, I can be abrasive someti…

I started reading the article, having little background on kernel drama, and ended it thinking to myself, “Jesus, what did this poor guy do to deserve all this hate?” Then I read the thread you linked and thought, “Oh. That.” To be clear nobody deserves to be harassed or threatened, but Hector’s messages make it clear he is astoundingly good at making himself into a victim of injustice. When his messages mentioned “c…

It seems at the heart of the issue is the vision for the future of Linux kernel.

One group believes it is Rust (progressives), one group doesn't believe that and wants to continue with C (conservatives).

If they cannot find a way to live at peace with each other, I think the only solution is for the Rust folks to start building the kernel in Rust and not try to "convert" the existing kernel to Rust piece by piece.

Why they cannot live in peace seems to be: a way that C kernel folks would not need to deal with Rust code.

At the core, the story is not that different from introducing new languages to a project.

You are introducing a new tax on everyone to pay for the new goodies you like, and those who are going to be taxed and don't like the new goodies are resisting.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#937

Post by anon8644667533 »

It seems at the heart of the issue is the vision for the future of Linux kernel.

One group believes it is Rust (progressives), one group doesn't believe that and wants to continue with C (conservatives).

If they cannot find a way to live at peace with each other, I think the only solution is for the Rust folks to start building the kernel in Rust and not try to "convert" the existing kernel to Rust piece by piece.

Why they cannot live in peace seems to be: a way that C kernel folks would not need to deal with Rust code.

At the core, the story is not that different from introducing new languages to a project.

You are introducing a new tax on everyone to pay for the new goodies you like, and those who are going to be taxed and don't like the new goodies are resisting.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#938

Post by Den_VR »

dralley wrote: post #693
stirlo wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% this. Yes, Hector went nuclear, but he begged Linus to step in and provide leadership (either merge or reject) and instead Linus ignored the whole technical issue with regards to rust being totally blocked. Even now with Hector out of the picture, there’s still no suitable path forward for rust in Linux. No wonder why people are giving up (exactly what the blockers want).

>Even now with Hector out of the picture, there’s still no suitable path forward for rust in Linux The suitable path forward is to submit the patch series like normal to Linus, where it will be merged regardless of CH's NACK. CH isn't able to actually stop this process, he's just being a jerk. However, I agree with you that it would have been nice to actually publicly clarify the situation rather than ignore it and d…

The reasoning Linus himself gives for greenlighting Rust is, among other things, to avoid stagnation. In practice, CH is doing everything he can to stonewall and sabotage efforts to subsequently bring Rust to solve problems. This explosion, now, was plainly a consequence of months and months of failure. And that anyone name-calls to blame that failure on “a drama-seeker” leaves me to wonder about the future of Linux 20 years from now.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#939

Post by SXX »

dagmx wrote: post #808
SXX wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not something specific to open source. Unfortunately if you want to be well-known person who works on well-known project you must either ignore all the shit thrown at you altogether or you must be very very resilient. When you react to attacks on internet you will be attacked, often. And while I appreciate Marcan's work a lot he is also partically responsible because he himself often jumped on bandwagon attac…

There’s a significant difference between open source and proprietary software. With proprietary software you usually have a corporate mandate, a goal etc to achieve. Any new tech is achieved as part of that drive. You can get people on board or not based on that, and once you’ve decided, there is someone to answer to if you can’t deliver. Open source doesn’t have that. A project can go in twenty different directions…

For me it wasn't about open source vs proprietary software. I just wanted to say that in areas like game development, online entertainment or just really anything that require interacting with big communities of people on internet there is no way to avoid attacks on yourself.

So leading well known open source project is politics on a small scale and there will be a lot of people who want to hurt or manipulate you.

If you decide to become a public person and want to have fans and supporters then be ready to have haters as well.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#940

Post by vor_ »

account42 wrote: post #901
jeroenhd wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source attracts some of the very worst users. Often people pretending to be trying to help by "suggesting improvements", but just as often entitled people who want to work for free. I don't think policies will change that. It's just something you have to accept when you provide something useful to lots of people for free. Even if you use moderated environments for user feedback (adding the burden of constantly b…

> Open source attracts some of the very worst users. This has not been my experience. Perhaps consider that the problem is not the users. > the active sabotage some angry Linux kernel devs are trying to pull because they don't like Rust On the other hand, users that demand you rewrite the project in their favorite language or otherwise accomodate their preferences over your own are pretty annoying.

> On the other hand, users that demand you rewrite the project in their favorite language or otherwise accomodate their preferences over your own are pretty annoying.

Who's demanding a rewrite of Linux?

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