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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#691

Post by dapperdrake »

michaelt wrote: post #289
bayindirh wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Putting my dusty Linux Distro Maintainer Hat on] First of all, I wholeheartedly applaud Marcan for carrying the project this far. They, both as individuals and as a team proper, did great things. What I can say is a rest is well deserved at this point, because he really poured his soul into this and worn himself down. On the other hand, I'll need to say something, however not in bad faith. He needs to stop fighting…

> He needs to stop fighting with the winds he can't control. Users gonna be users, and people gonna be people. Everyone won't be happy, never ever. Right - but it kinda sounds like he's facing headwinds in a lot of different directions. Headwinds from Apple, who are indifferent to the project, stingy with documentation, and not inclined to reduce their own rate of change. Headwinds from users, because of the stripped…

Well, nobody ever said it wouldn’t feel uphill both ways.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#692

Post by freetime2 »

> For a long time, well after we had a stable release, people kept claiming Asahi Linux and Fedora Asahi Remix in particular were “alpha” and “unstable” and “not suitable for a daily driver”

This is still my position on Asahi Linux: that it is not something that I would use as a daily driver nor recommend to others for use as a daily driver.

> “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one).

These would be dealbreakers for me, too. To be clear, I am not saying that it is anyone's job to fix these issues for me. And this isn't meant as an attack on the Asahi Linux team - I think it's incredible what they have been able to do.

But those comments, without any larger context to demonstrate harassment or anything like that, just don't seem too bad to me. The language could be softened a bit, sure, but the criticisms themselves resonate with me and would be valid reasons to not use Asahi Linux IMO.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#693

Post by dralley »

stirlo wrote: post #520
adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this isn't the right take. the "disagreement" was a kernel maintainer saying "Rust in the Linux kernel is a mistake and I will do everything in my power to sabotage Rust adoption" (as feedback on version 8 of a patch). The fact that open undermining of Rust for Linux receives no pushback from Linus or anyone else with power in the Kernel is shocking.

100% this. Yes, Hector went nuclear, but he begged Linus to step in and provide leadership (either merge or reject) and instead Linus ignored the whole technical issue with regards to rust being totally blocked. Even now with Hector out of the picture, there’s still no suitable path forward for rust in Linux. No wonder why people are giving up (exactly what the blockers want).

>Even now with Hector out of the picture, there’s still no suitable path forward for rust in Linux

The suitable path forward is to submit the patch series like normal to Linus, where it will be merged regardless of CH's NACK. CH isn't able to actually stop this process, he's just being a jerk.

However, I agree with you that it would have been nice to actually publicly clarify the situation rather than ignore it and deal with the whole thing behind closed doors. It shouldn't need to be explained that letting this sort of thing fester is a great way to kill motivation in a project and ensure it's less likely that new people will get involved.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#694

Post by fzeroracer »

echelon wrote: post #437
krapp wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the opinions they don't agree with exist on Hacker News, and they do (check the dead comments in just about any thread where Asahi Linux comes up) then it isn't an unfair assessment at all. What is the "it" that you're insisting they "deal with," here? What is the "drama?" Also what value does bigotry, homophobia and transphobia have in open discourse that it must be preserved? None of that is on topic for Hacker…

This wasn't even my point [1], but I'll go there. Turn the other cheek. Ignore it. It's 2025 we're learning lessons from USENET all over again and having to reign in the over-sensitive, disregulated behavior of some people. I'm gay, on the spectrum, and my wife is trans. What certain people in "my" community do from places of relative comfort makes life for those of us in more moderate / conservative-leaning places w…

> Conservatives let LGBT and trans issues slide for over two decades of my adult life. But by being loud and attempting to silence them -- by harassing them -- you've become the nail that sticks out and have now created a tidal wave of opinion against us.

In the US, DADT was repealed in 2011. Obergefell was 2015. The idea that they let LGBT and trans issues slide for over 20 years is fundamentally wrong and not supported by history.

I reject the rest of your post and the defense of those that would take rights away from individuals and myself because they have to be coddled.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#695

Post by titmouse »

anonfordays wrote: post #412
nindalf wrote: post #93

Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…

If comments as benign as "thin blue line" causes fragile entryist/activists to flee, I say Ted and the kernel team are doing the right thing. Projects as critical as the Linux kernel shouldn't be battlegrounds for the grievance of the week, nor should they be platforms for proselytizing. Marcan and others like him leave long paths of destruction in their wake. Lots of projects have been turned upsidedown by the drama…

I didn't even know what the whole issue with the "thin blue line" comment was until I read this thread. I was never under the impression "thin blue line" was about corruption or brutality, I think people are conflating "thin blue line" with "blue lives matter", which is an entirely different subject.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#696

Post by hnaccount_rng »

rowanG077 wrote: post #509
bayindirh wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not by time, but by weight. The code you write is worthless if you can’t communicate it or what you did.

You are implying that if you can communicate but have nothing backing it up that's worth 95%? If anything code can still be taken as is and understood by someone else. So to me it's always most important to be able to produce anything before being able to communicate.

Think about it the other way around: How much code is written and never used? How much code is written and would be better if it were never used? How much code is used only to then notice, that it doesn't solve the business problem that it was intended to solve? How much code is run and it's never noticed that it doesn't solve any business problem?

All the while: You are correct, being able to produce anything that solves a problem is much more valuable than being able to talk about it. But in order to unlock the value (beyond solving your own problem) absolutely requires communication

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#697

Post by finnthehuman »

dralley wrote: post #431
4bpp wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "no one will be forced to use Rust in the Kernel" Is this true, though? One reason for this altercation seems to be the basic circumstance that in Linux kernel development, if there is a dependency between two pieces of code A and B, the responsibility to keep B consistent with changes to A lies, in order, with anyone proposing patches to A, the subsystem maintainer for A, and finally the subsystem maintainer for B…

They're not "forced to use Rust". They are maybe forced to work with Rust developers of whichever subsystem needs to be updated, but that would always have been the case with the C developers of whichever subsystem needs to be updated too.

>They're not "forced to use Rust". They are maybe forced to work with Rust developers of whichever subsystem needs to be updated

So if the maintainer of subsystem X can be forced to work with the rust developers of their own subsystem, then that rust developer just got promoted to co-maintainer with veto power. Effectively that's what they'd be, right? I can see why maintainers might not like that. Especially if they don't think the rust dev is enough of a subject matter expert on the subsystem.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#698

Post by adultSwim »

silisili wrote: post #101

Hector, I know you deleted your account here but in the off chance you browse by - thank you for all of your hard work and knowledge sharing on this over the years. Hope you find time to take a long well deserved 'mental health break' and destress.

I second the motion. So many of us are deeply thankful for this tremendous work.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#699

Post by viraptor »

galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

It sounds like he really got invested too much into what people wrote.

> “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS”

These are not even requests. These are objective statements he can either take note of for prioritisation or ignore. I can also say Asahi is useless to me until usb-c monitors support, but that's just my situation - there's no bad faith or request here. Previously that was the same for WiFi support.

I wish there was some good model for maintainers of bigger projects to deal with this on a personal level. The bigger the project, the more people there will be with unmet requirements and that's just life. It literally can't be solved.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#700

Post by thomastjeffery »

galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

People complain about things that they care about. People also don't usually have as much tact as we would like them to.

I think the best way to deal with this is to just confidently say what you are and are not ready to get done. The social dynamic will always be this way, so we may as well take whatever criticism is useful, leave the rest behind, and move on.

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