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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#881

Post by lelanthran »

detuur wrote: post #717
LexiMax wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite frankly, if I had the realization that despite assurances to the contrary, that my contributions to a project had been sabotaged for months or even years up to that point, I would have also had a hard time keeping a smile on my face. This is ultimately what this drama comes down to. Not if Rust should or shouldn't be in the kernel, but with kernel maintainers' broken promises and being coy with intentions until…

I can't believe you're the first person I find in this conversation who raises this issue. This is the exact reason why Marcan flipped his lid. Linus publicly championed a very technically complex initiative and then left all those contributors to the wolves when things didn't progress without a hiccup. Especially damning when you consider that at every step, the fief lords in Linux have seemingly done everything in…

> He personally cut the knot and asserted that Rust is Linux's future,

When did he say that?

In any event, that could be true (Rust is Linux's future) while the statement "R4L is not in Linux's future" is also true.

IOW, in principle, I may agree with you on something. That doesn't mean I agree with your specific implementation.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#882

Post by bayindirh »

inkyoto wrote: post #842
Scaevolus wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marcan's career as a developer includes lots of development on hostile systems where he's jailbreaking various consoles to allow homebrew. Asahi Linux is similar, given how hostile and undocumented Apple Silicon is, but it has a great amount of expectations of feature completeness and additional bureaucracy for code changes that really destroys the free-wheeling hacker spirit.

> Asahi Linux is similar, given how hostile and undocumented Apple Silicon is, […] «Undocumented» – yes, but «hostile» is an emotionally charged term that elicits a strong negative reaction; more significantly, though, it constitutes a flagrant misrepresentation of the veritable truth as stipulated within the resignation letter itself: When Apple released the M1, I realized that making it run Linux was my dream proje…

> No such resistance has been observed on the Apple Silion computing contraptions.

I think they even left a "direct boot from image" (or something similar) mode as a small door to allow Asahi Linux development, if not to accelerate a little bit without affecting their own roadmap. Even Hector tweeted about it himself!

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#883

Post by debeloo »

prmoustache wrote: post #863
debeloo wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get it. I think that might be the problem. It's comments like these that causes people to wear out.

It is the need of personal gratification and having a public and active online persona that makes hobby devs wear out from other users feedback. You don't get negative feedback if you don't open communications channels for that.

> You don't get negative feedback if you don't open communications channels for that.

This some next level philosophy pondering, thanks.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#884

Post by jfim »

roenxi wrote: post #775
bayindirh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans have a very, very tough time assuming the point of view of another. That is the root of terrible communication, but assumptions are right up there as a big second. That's very true. I recommend some people to read "The Four Agreements", because that thin book has real potential to improve people's lives through active and passive communication.

Also worth being aware of Robert Kagen's adult development model [0] or something similar; that gives people a framework to go from "humans seem" to some actual percentages and capabilities. Spoiler, but approximately 66% of the adult population make do without being able to maintain their own perspective independently of what their social circle tells them it is. I imagine that would make it extremely challenging to…

That's pretty fascinating, thanks for sharing it! It's a pretty compelling explanation as to why some people seem to be completely unable to logically explain their reasoning for certain beliefs and just fall back to "well it should be so because everybody says so."

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#885

Post by xorcist »

mschuster91 wrote: post #243
seba_dos1 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just that "people are hard" - it was clear that this will end up this way the moment marcan started ranting on social media about having to send kernel patches via e-mails. Collaborating on software development is a social activity and stuff like convincing maintainers to trust you and your approach is just as important part of it (if not more important) as writing code. Not realizing that is a sure road to…

> it was clear that this will end up this way the moment marcan started ranting on social media about having to send kernel patches via e-mails. Collaborating on software development is a social activity and stuff like convincing maintainers to trust you and your approach is just as important part of it (if not more important) as writing code. Yeah but FFS using email for patches when there are so much better ways of…

It's an interesting phenomenon where people keep coming out of the woodwork and criticize the most successful software development project in history for doing it wrong.

They're not micro kernel! They're not TDD! They're not C++! They're not CVS! Not SVN! Not SCRUM! Not Gitlab!

Yet the project marches on, with a nebulous vision of doing a really useful kernel for everyone. Had they latched on any of the armchain expert criticism of how they're doing it wrong all these years we wouldn't be here.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#886

Post by xorcist »

black3r wrote: post #674
bayindirh wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't think GitHub's PR model is superior to e-mail based patch management for two reasons. First, e-mail needs no additional middleware at git level to process (I can get my mails and directly start working on my machine), plus e-mail is at least one of Git's native patch management mechanisms. This is not about spam, server management or GitLab/Gitea/whatever issue. This is catering to most diverse wor…

the problem with mail-based patch management is that it doesn't scale well, management wise... when you have hundreds of patches and multiple reviewers who can review them, Github/Gitlab environments make it easier to prioritize the patches, assign who will do the review, filter the patches based on tags, and keep track of what wasn't reviewed yet..., mail-based patch management is fine for smaller projects, but Linu…

Email is just the protocol. What you're really saying is that http-based protocols make more powerful tools possible.

It's not really enough to state your case. You have to do the work.

On the surface, the kernel developers are productive enough. Feel free to do shadow work for a maintainer and keep your patch stack in Gitlab. It it can be shown the be more effective, lots of maintainers are going to be interested. It's not like they all work the same way!

They just have a least common denominator which is store-and-forward patch transport in standard git email format.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#887

Post by Slitted »

panza wrote: post #686
rdtsc wrote: post #209

A person can be in a tough spot personally and then things seem to spiral out of control around them because that just cannot be 100% isolated from professional stuff or other spheres of life. It seems like this might have happened to Hector based on the post. We've all been there and that part is completely understandable. > I get that some people might not have liked my Mastodon posts. Yes, I can be abrasive someti…

> "If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas." This is just an incredibly odd thing to say. It's so obviously out of line that it seems like someone's joking around. The Rust community (generally-speaking) just can't see why people have a visceral reaction against them, independent of its technical qualities. In all my years, I've not seen anything like it.

Hector seems to both have the right intentions but also an inflammatory tone in discussions that makes it challenging to support his points.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#888

Post by bayindirh »

lillecarl wrote: post #876
The_Colonel wrote: post #873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of it is simply AMD getting on newer TSMC nodes. Most of the Apple's efficiency head start is better process (they got exclusive access to 5nm at first).

That's my understanding as well, as soon as the node exclusivity dropped they were ballpark equal. Many ARM SOC are designed to run on battery only so the wireless packages and low power states are better, my AMD couldn't go below 400mhz. But yeah the "Apple M hardware is miles and leagues away" hypetrain was just a hypetrain. Impressive and genuinely great but not revolutionary, at best incremental. I hope to be abl…

> But yeah the "Apple M hardware is miles and leagues away" hypetrain was just a hypetrain. Impressive and genuinely great but not revolutionary, at best incremental.

It's more nuanced than that. Apple effectively pulled a "Sony A7-III" move. Released something one generation ahead before everybody else, and disrupted everyone.

Sony called "A7-III" entry level mirrorless, but it had much more features even when compared to the higher-end SLRs of the era, and effectively pulled every other camera on the market one level down.

I don't think even they thought they'd keep that gap forever. I personally didn't think it either, but when it was released, it was leaps and bounds ahead, and forced other manufacturers to do the same to stay relevant.

They pulled everyone upwards, and now they continue their move. If not this, they also showed that computers can be miniaturized much more. Intel N100 and RaspberryPi/OrangePi 5 provides so much performance for daily tasks, so unimaginable things at that size are considered normal now.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#889

Post by coldtea »

kennysoona wrote: post #847
MyOutfitIsVague wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stoicism is a school of philosophy. There are many many words over thousands of years discussing the practices and virtues.

You've stated a fact that has no bearing on the parents claim. Why?

If they've written "many many words over thousands of years" for the merits of their philosophy, they are also perfectly capable to write multi-paragraph goodbye letters. That's the bearing it has on the parents claim. And many did.

Why you felt the need to add your comment, is a more apt question.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#890

Post by coldtea »

lillecarl wrote: post #876
The_Colonel wrote: post #873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of it is simply AMD getting on newer TSMC nodes. Most of the Apple's efficiency head start is better process (they got exclusive access to 5nm at first).

That's my understanding as well, as soon as the node exclusivity dropped they were ballpark equal. Many ARM SOC are designed to run on battery only so the wireless packages and low power states are better, my AMD couldn't go below 400mhz. But yeah the "Apple M hardware is miles and leagues away" hypetrain was just a hypetrain. Impressive and genuinely great but not revolutionary, at best incremental. I hope to be abl…

>But yeah the "Apple M hardware is miles and leagues away" hypetrain was just a hypetrain. Impressive and genuinely great but not revolutionary, at best incremental.

Compared to the incremental changes we've seen the previous 10 years before it arrived on AMD/Intel space, it was revolutionary.

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