Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

671–680 of 1001 posts

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#671

Post by Klonoar »

unclad5968 wrote: post #337
rdtsc wrote: post #209

A person can be in a tough spot personally and then things seem to spiral out of control around them because that just cannot be 100% isolated from professional stuff or other spheres of life. It seems like this might have happened to Hector based on the post. We've all been there and that part is completely understandable. > I get that some people might not have liked my Mastodon posts. Yes, I can be abrasive someti…

> People will look on Rust community after this and say "Remember that time when _they_ where threatening kernel devs with social media drama?". It's not right but that's the perception that will last. Happened with actix, happened with serde, and now being threatened by kernel contributors. The perception seems at least somewhat based in reality.

Hang on there: the serde issue drama would’ve happened in any other ecosystem and doesn’t quite belong in this list, because it was about shoving a pre-compiled binary into the supply chain.

(The actix drama was stupid IMO and is fair to criticize the community over tho)

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#672

Post by generalizations »

estebank wrote: post #599
generalizations wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a maintainer" The way you word that makes it sound like "the maintainers" and "T-libs-api" do not consider this "okay". Reading just above the linked comment, however, puts a very different impression of the situation: > We discussed this regression in today's @rust-lang/libs-api team meeting, and agree there's nothing to change on Rust's end. Those repos that have an old version of time in a lockfile will need to u…

You're reading an artifact of a point in time, before the it hit stable and the rest of the project found out about this. t-libs-api misunderstood the impact because in the past there had been situations that looked similar and were unproblematic to go ahead with, but weren't actually similar. There were follow up conversations, both in public and private, where the consensus arrived was that this was not ok.

What I'm hearing is that the nature of the issue was recognized - that this was a breaking change; but that the magnitude of the change and the scale of the impact of that break was underestimated.

TBH that does not inspire confidence. I would expect that something claiming or aspiring to exhibit good engineering design would, as a matter of principle, avoid any breaking change of any magnitude in updates that are not intended to include breaking changes.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#673

Post by llm_trw »

Lammy wrote: post #619
ecshafer wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust, which is a language I really enjoy, generates more social media outrage and religious wars than any other technical project I have been following for the past 20 years.

> more social media outrage and religious wars than any other technical project I have been following for the past 20 years. It is unfortunately wrapped up in larger-scale outrage culture than just within tech/programming circles. Rust as a community is very gay and very trans: https://blog.rust-lang.org/2024/02/19/2023-Rust-Annual-Surve... https://blog.rust-lang.org/2025/02/13/2024-State-Of-Rust-Sur... To be clear I…

Personally I'd go with the "biggest worries graph" for an explanation as to why I avoid rust like the plague. If you have half of all respondents say that it's not used enough the corollary they seem to have derived is "let's force it everywhere so it does get used more". Meanwhile forth people are hacking away on building a gui in 300 bytes in a mailing list open since the 80s.

I know which of the two languages was easier and more pleasant to hire for - which should be impossible as I kept getting told no one uses forth.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#674

Post by black3r »

bayindirh wrote: post #267
mschuster91 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was clear that this will end up this way the moment marcan started ranting on social media about having to send kernel patches via e-mails. Collaborating on software development is a social activity and stuff like convincing maintainers to trust you and your approach is just as important part of it (if not more important) as writing code. Yeah but FFS using email for patches when there are so much better ways of…

I personally don't think GitHub's PR model is superior to e-mail based patch management for two reasons. First, e-mail needs no additional middleware at git level to process (I can get my mails and directly start working on my machine), plus e-mail is at least one of Git's native patch management mechanisms. This is not about spam, server management or GitLab/Gitea/whatever issue. This is catering to most diverse wor…

the problem with mail-based patch management is that it doesn't scale well, management wise... when you have hundreds of patches and multiple reviewers who can review them, Github/Gitlab environments make it easier to prioritize the patches, assign who will do the review, filter the patches based on tags, and keep track of what wasn't reviewed yet...,

mail-based patch management is fine for smaller projects, but Linux kernel is too big by now.. it sure is amazing how they seem to make it work despite their scale, but it's kinda obvious by now, that some patches can go unnoticed, unprioritized, unassigned, ...

and open source is all about getting as many developers as possible to contribute to the development. if I contribute something and wait months to get it reviewed, it will deter me from contributing anything more, and I don't care what's the reason behind it. the same goes for if I contribute something and receive an argument between two or more reviewers whether it's the right direction or not and there's no argumentative answer from a supervisor of the project and this situation goes on for months...

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#675

Post by debeloo »

WD-42 wrote: post #563
galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

This whole post feels like typical burnout. Imagine porting something as complex as Linux to a platform who's creators actively do not want Linux ported to it. Of course you will burn our eventually. Not to dismiss his experiences, but I wonder if there is some deflection going on here - burnout was happening anyway but blaming others is a good smoke-screen.

> burnout was happening anyway but blaming others is a good smoke-screen.

Oh no. I'm convinced majority of burnouts are almost entirely caused by dealing with shitty people and/or shitty processes.

Shitty processes sometimes happen without shitty people, the people involved just let it happen.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#676

Post by throw16180339 »

earnesti wrote: post #86
anonzzzies wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is pretty normal; in paid products I even find it's less aggressive than in free things. But I have a hard and frozen shell around my vital organs to just politely and friendly point to the place in queue and where to donate to speed it up. For $10k I will build your cpu temp proc, if that's not an option then it's in pos #17463 of my task list.

Yes. I was developing some open source stuff before venturing to for-profit closed Source Software, and I was surprised that the paying customers were on average much nicer than those who got their stuff for free! Great idea about the priority queue.

My experience was that raising my consulting prices lead to better customers.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#677

Post by Aurornis »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #582
KennyBlanken wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assuming everyone is acting in good faith Why would we assume that Ted repeatedly using strawman fallacies, bleating appeals to emotion and acting like a victim...all the while shouting people down...evidence of "acting in good faith"? When you shout over someone like that you're nothing but a bully. > he fails to address the concern that a change they introduce would error downstream and someone else had to clean…

I'm not a rust or c developer. > As has been exhaustively explained by others in previous HN threads and elsewhere: the Rust developers were asking to be informed of changes so that Rust developers could update their code to accommodate the change. I don't understand why you don't see this as "a really big deal". The C developers make a breaking change. They fix all the C code, then they write an email to the Rust de…

This is kernel development we're talking about. It progresses carefully, not a the breakneck pace of a continuous integration SaaS platform that is single-minded about pushing features out as quickly as possible.

A better analogy would be like an API inside of a monolithic app that has multiple consumers on different teams. One team consumes the API and wants to be notified of breaking changes. The other team says "Nah, too much work" and wants to be able to break the API without worrying about consequences.

If having multiple consumers of an API or interface is a goal, you make communication a priority.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#678

Post by yencabulator »

yellowapple wrote: post #365
subjectsigma wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started reading the article, having little background on kernel drama, and ended it thinking to myself, “Jesus, what did this poor guy do to deserve all this hate?” Then I read the thread you linked and thought, “Oh. That.” To be clear nobody deserves to be harassed or threatened, but Hector’s messages make it clear he is astoundingly good at making himself into a victim of injustice. When his messages mentioned “c…

The funny thing for me is that Rust's mascot, Ferris, is a crab (or "rustacean"). The symbol for Cancer is also a crab. The very word "cancer" itself comes from the Greek "καρκίνος" (karkínos), meaning "crab". Rust literally is Cancer.

And also all programming languages will evolve to look like it ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#679

Post by dralley »

unclad5968 wrote: post #337
rdtsc wrote: post #209

A person can be in a tough spot personally and then things seem to spiral out of control around them because that just cannot be 100% isolated from professional stuff or other spheres of life. It seems like this might have happened to Hector based on the post. We've all been there and that part is completely understandable. > I get that some people might not have liked my Mastodon posts. Yes, I can be abrasive someti…

> People will look on Rust community after this and say "Remember that time when _they_ where threatening kernel devs with social media drama?". It's not right but that's the perception that will last. Happened with actix, happened with serde, and now being threatened by kernel contributors. The perception seems at least somewhat based in reality.

There was plenty of indefensible behavior in the Actix debacle, but the reason it blew up was because the maintainer was genuinely wrong and was being a jerk on top of it. The sequence of events was:

1) Issue found by Shnatsel

2) Issue closed as harmless to users by fafhrd91

3) Issue proven harmful to users by Nemo157 and reopened by JohnTitor

4) Issue fixed and closed by fafhrd91

5) Issue proven unfixed and proposed new patch by Nemo157

6) New patch commented "this patch is boring" by fafhrd91

7) Issue is deleted

8) Fix is reversed by fafhrd91, issue still present

http://web.archive.org/web/20200116231317/https://github.com...

A maintainer that rejects a fix for an issue that was proven harmful to users on the basis that it was "boring" and then deletes the issue is a bad maintainer. Death threats and abuse were definitely not the right answer, but public criticism is not unreasonable in such a case. If it were just a hobby project and advertised as such then that would be one thing, but he plastered info about how it was used production by a bunch of big companies on the website. That is not how someone who calls their code "production-ready" acts.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#680

Post by ghosty141 »

Topgamer7 wrote: post #285

I understand the challenges he's facing. But I think he put a bit too much of himself into the project. So everything is personal. When someone asks for functionality "why no thund3rb01t OmG" you should be able to say without taking it personally "driver will take time or a volunteer". > I miss having free time where I can relax and not worry about the features we haven’t shipped yet. I miss making music. I miss atte…

I agree. I mean constant nagging about features can definitely be annoying so I can understand that part but having the rest sounds like burnout.
Post reply on HN