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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#331

Post by watwut »

Mistletoe wrote: post #207
yoyohello13 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Lol! Are you new here? Y-combinator is literally about selling your soul to VC.

I'm slowly, very slowly, realizing this and that my objections to this are quite literally pissing into the wind to the wrong crowd. Begging and pleading for people to make tech that doesn't torture and depress the average user seems to just fall upon deaf ears, because all that ever mattered to them was the money.

Ok, yeah, but PhD is super exploitative. You work a lot oftentimes with bonkers expectations of you doing nothing but working. You earn super little. You spend a lot of time doing simple work. And, it is pyramid where you are never sure you will be able to secure a postdoc, second one or position.

Aaand, you are forced to move and take position where it is - relocate to a place that has position open whether you like the place or not. That puts strain on the partner - who is expected to move where you go, while you don't have time for kids and while you don't even earn much.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#332

Post by zfnmxt »

adastra22 wrote: post #316
marklar423 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters? Everyone I talk to seems to say a Masters in CompSci is useless, and that you may as well do a PhD instead.

As someone who hires, my opinion is the exact opposite. A masters is good, but a PhD is at least a yellow flag.

> PhD is at least a yellow flag.

Why?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#333

Post by jajko »

janalsncm wrote: post #158
daft_pink wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but if you compare paying 30-50k per year plus living expenses for an average masters program for 2-3 years and then paying student loans for a really long time because you couldn't afford it in the first place vs paying no tuition and getting a $30k-40k stipend for 4-5 years. The advantage of a year or two of additional work isn't as great as you think, when you subtract out tuition and the stipend they give…

It depends on your career prospects. If you can expect to make $200k out of grad school then it’s definitely not better to spend your time in school, financially. But yeah it’s a math question at that point.

I don't think even smart folks here realize how much of a boost is some good income cash when you are starting your life from poor background. But one has to save it and not burn on 'better' lifestyle with trying to match peers or impress women (clue - if they don't like who you really are, no shiny expensive thing will ever make it work long term and you will just attract very wrong crowd).

I can attest it allowed me to do literal jumps way above what my peers and rest could do setting up much better life path. Pure numbers don't do this justice, not sure how to explain it properly.

Now it may not be your goal in life and thats fine, this comes from a guy who spent 6 months on unpaid backpacking all over India and Nepal well into his career work days, but be sure you are really fine with these decisions long, I mean LONG term. And we don't know who we will be in 2 decades.

Also a good quick start could easily mean retiring much earlier if one has a bit of luck and can control expenses growth (and they will grow regardless of your life path). One can focus on academia then.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#334

Post by Chance-Device »

darth_avocado wrote: post #257
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money centric place. It’s not HN. It’s the fact that doing PHD is only a reasonable choice if you either want to get into academia long term or you come from wealth. (Historically science and research was a rich people thing, and only became accessible once student loans were more accessible) I genuinely considered doing PhD after my Masters degree.…

Strongly agreed. The reality of doing a PhD is that you serve the interests of your advisor while living like a pauper. Hardly surprising people are finally realising that it’s usually not worth it. Just part of the needless proliferation of education.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#335

Post by rightbyte »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising.

It has always been heavy on Silicon Valley (legal) hustler types? Even more earlier. Concerning startups most seems disillusioned about the prospects nowadays.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#336

Post by selimthegrim »

WalterBright wrote: post #277
oneplane wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading a biography mostly informed me about the lack of general empathy, remorse, sympathy. Only regret came forward a little (and only once). > be crazy enough to bet it all Anyone who doesn't suffer any real consequences. Having parents with a lot of money makes it not matter all that much. As for the other bad decisions; it doesn't really show much positive except maybe persistence, but persistence in a vacuum is…

> Anyone who doesn't suffer any real consequences. Having parents with a lot of money makes it not matter all that much. You're not going to starve in America if you lose all your money. Besides, Elon's dad at one point invested in Elon's company. Elon was already a success in business by then. From $20,000, he became the richest man in the world. All by luck! Pretty amazing! Me, I could scrape up $20,000. Could I tu…

> You're not going to starve in America if you lose all your money.

Walk down my street with me and I’ll show you.

> Nor am I as smart as he is.

Are you kidding?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#337

Post by selimthegrim »

WalterBright wrote: post #270
oneplane wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading a biography mostly informed me about the lack of general empathy, remorse, sympathy. Only regret came forward a little (and only once). > be crazy enough to bet it all Anyone who doesn't suffer any real consequences. Having parents with a lot of money makes it not matter all that much. As for the other bad decisions; it doesn't really show much positive except maybe persistence, but persistence in a vacuum is…

Musk used his "hoard" to revolutionize the car industry, then the rocket industry, then the communications industry, etc. Did you know he gave away free Starlink to victims of hurricane Helena and the LA fires? When FEMA did nothing? He's also going to rescue the astronauts abandoned in space. My gawd, Elon is pure eeevil!!

How did FEMA do nothing?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#338

Post by selimthegrim »

mnky9800n wrote: post #167
ImaCake wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it depends on the institution? I, and many of those I know who went to the same institution, had terrible PhD experiences. I burnt out and left with a Masters, others just quit, one committed suicide. Even those who completed the PhD said it was miserable. Its hard to know if the risk of a bad time is always high or if it is dependent on culture etc, but I do not recommend PhDs as a pathway anymore.

You can have a poorly paid bad time doing lots of things. A PhD isn’t the worst option by a long shot haha.

It is if no one in your area hires for jobs that consider the PhD skills worth paying for.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#339

Post by globular-toast »

yodsanklai wrote: post #101

As usual, lot of PhD bashing in the comments. My experience was generally positive. The good things 1. I had mostly fun doing it. Being paid to learn things is great. 2. I got to work in different countries, and travel to many places 3. I was able to have more than one career. PhD + academia, before switching to industry. Gave me more perspectives. 4. I did learn a few things and skills (public speaking, I learned a…

> A lot of what I learned is totally useless.

I feel like everyone says this regardless of what level of education they have. I have a PhD and I've never felt this way. Everything I've learnt has contributed to the whole. The broad, shallow exposure from school has been extremely useful. I think I've used just about everything at one time or another. The PhD was less about learning in the specific area and more about learning how to do a PhD. You have to learn how to study a field and get on top of it, how to organise and assimilate that information, and how to build on top of that. This is definitely still useful to me and I'm not sure I would have learned to do it without actually doing it.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#340

Post by dr_dshiv »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

A lot of people pursue PhDs because they are good at school and are highly trained to “jump through the next hoop.”

Not to be dismissive, because career academics are important. But there is an unnecessary anxiety for many about leaving school and entering the workforce.

I think one attraction is also: “wow, I can get paid to continue my education?”

Academia is like universal basic income for the highly intelligent. It’s a good system, overall and I think it will have a strong future. But it is not a good way to build wealth.

That said, the freedom it provides can make a PhD a great place to start a business, start a family, etc. But, it requires bravery and self direction, because it certainly won’t steer you there.

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