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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#831

Post by dralley »

School-Cotton wrote: post #820
kibwen wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even close to 100%, the reason that it feels like every major C codebase in industry is pinned to some ancient compiler version is because upgrading to a new toolchain is fraught. The fact that most Rust users are successfully tracking relatively recent versions of the toolchain is a testament to how stable Rust actually is in practice (an upgrade might take you a few minutes per million lines of code).

IDK about "industry" but I can't think of any prominent C or C++ open-source codebase that requires a specific version of gcc or clang to compile.

The Linux kernel was that way for a while, years ago.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#832

Post by dralley »

hu3 wrote: post #817
purplesyringa wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quite literally the story of nouveau. The driver exists because people need it, and the driver is maintained by the people who wrote it. I don't see why the same doesn't apply to Linux on Apple Silicon.

is nouveau written in Rust?

No. However its replacement (Nova) is.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#833

Post by fastball »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #813
kllrnohj wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's objectionable is primarily the phrase "thin blue line" - it's highly politically charged language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_blue_line One would hope it was just a particularly bad gaffe, but it could also be an insight into how he actually views himself as a maintainer which is not great.

It is most certainly not politically charged language. It's an anodyne statement referring to being a small force keeping bad things from happening. That's all.

The "blue" is specifically about police, so it is not as generic as you make it out to be.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#834

Post by layer8 »

fastball wrote: post #827
layer8 wrote: post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be misreading these numbers. It’s effectively 7-8% of the respondents who identify as non-heterosexual, which seems roughly in line with the general population (e.g. [0]). [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1270166/lgbt-identificat...

That is assuming everyone who is one of those groups first sees themselves as marginalized. imo it would've been better to not have that first question and just ask people which group they identify with.

That’s a fair point, though I would be surprised if it made a huge difference. The actual survey question was: “Do you consider yourself a member of a group that is underrepresented or marginalized in technology?” I would expect most members of a minority to consider themselves underrepresented just by virtue of being a minority. And as the choice of groups was explicitly given, I assume that the survey allowed to view the groups and then go back to answering the first question.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#835

Post by fastball »

layer8 wrote: post #834
fastball wrote: post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is assuming everyone who is one of those groups first sees themselves as marginalized. imo it would've been better to not have that first question and just ask people which group they identify with.

That’s a fair point, though I would be surprised if it made a huge difference. The actual survey question was: “Do you consider yourself a member of a group that is underrepresented or marginalized in technology?” I would expect most members of a minority to consider themselves underrepresented just by virtue of being a minority. And as the choice of groups was explicitly given, I assume that the survey allowed to vi…

I'd expect that as well, but we can't really assume that.

Being a minority does not make you underrepresented. Underrepresented means there are fewer than you'd expect, given population-level numbers. In the Rust community it certainly seems true that trans people are overrepresented, though "marginalized" almost certainly still applies. The same goes for LGB, which again does not seem underrepresented in the tech community compared to society writ large, and I think many LGB people probably don't see themselves as "marginalized" in 2025, but I could be wrong.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#836

Post by prododev »

dang wrote: post #734
prododev wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is pretty low moderation across the axis of personal attacks. If you politely say a ad hominem or racist or *-phobic thing here, it's unlikely you'll be moderated for it, for instance. I can dig up many such examples, but I suspect the response would be, "of course that's not moderated" because this community has a different set of values than some others. Moderation is always an editorial action, and as such we t…

That doesn't match my experience of what we do, so I'd like to see those "many such examples". IMO, if you're going to make charges like this, which would be serious if they were true, you should include links so readers can make up their own minds.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42461200

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42907076

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42783776

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42780835

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42718838

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42708579

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42700319

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43034231

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43031405

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42959625

My methodology: Search for any of the following terms: woman, biological, Black, Latino, gay, trans, woke, dei, or virtue signal

Set to "Comments" and "30 days". You'll find plenty of people saying things that are pretty awful. Yes, they are not the majority of posts, this place isn't a cesspool, it's just a place that permits "just asking questions" or "it's up for debate" as a defense for behavior

I could find many, MANY more examples.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#837

Post by tomnipotent »

LexiMax wrote: post #587
tharne wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust" Given the online temper tantrum thrown by marcan, Ted Tso'o's comment seems totally reasonable, regardless of one's opinion of Rust in the Linux kernel.

Quite frankly, if I had the realization that despite assurances to the contrary, that my contributions to a project had been sabotaged for months or even years up to that point, I would have also had a hard time keeping a smile on my face. This is ultimately what this drama comes down to. Not if Rust should or shouldn't be in the kernel, but with kernel maintainers' broken promises and being coy with intentions until…

> my contributions to a project had been sabotaged

I really wish people would stop throwing around the word "sabotaged". No one "sabotaged" anything. The opposition has been public from the beginning.

If I'm opposed to something, and someone asks my opinion about it in a private conversation, it is not "sabotage" to express my opinion. So far I haven't seen any evidence that those opposed to a mixed-language code base organized behind the scenes to hamper progress in anyway. Instead, their opposition has been public and in most cases instant.

Are people not allowed to be opposed to things anymore?

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#839

Post by surajrmal »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #370
surajrmal wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thread didn't really have drama before marcan stirred the pot. There was a disagreement, but the individuals pushing for the merge were not attempting to escalate, only try to find a path forward in a way that might make both parties happy with the compromise. The drama and social media outrage arguably did nothing to help, and as far as I can tell, simply makes for good entertainment for onlookers who like to go…

I think this isn't the right take. the "disagreement" was a kernel maintainer saying "Rust in the Linux kernel is a mistake and I will do everything in my power to sabotage Rust adoption" (as feedback on version 8 of a patch). The fact that open undermining of Rust for Linux receives no pushback from Linus or anyone else with power in the Kernel is shocking.

The rust project is not stalled. There is pushback from maintainers, but as trust is established, things will hopefully change and it'll get easier. Escalating erodes trust and simply will make the process take longer. Anything that fuels us vs them narratives are simply damaging. Everyone needs to focus on the shared objectives of the overall Linux project. Ignoring the maintainers and pretending their opinions are wrong or don't matter won't help. I'm not sure a top down directive is necessarily the right way to establish a healthy space for rust in linux.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#840

Post by pharos92 »

zoogeny wrote: post #753

I read this entire post because the man deserves not only to have his say but also to have his say listened to. That said, I detect a lot of one sided thinking in his post. He took on an incredibly difficult challenge, faced huge opposition, made incredible technical accomplishments and he feels entitled to a standing ovation. When what he receives is criticism, entitlement and obstructionism he takes it personally.…

I've worked with plenty of talented engineers who behave like this. It takes a certain psychology to achieve incredible technical feats, however they often come at the cost of personality issues in playing with others.

You add these personalities together, where everybody believes they are right an everybody else is wrong then it's a recipe for disaster.

People have to learn to adapt to change, or they get burnt out continually hitting the brick wall.

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