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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#231

Post by guywithahat »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

I would argue it’s not about making money, it’s about adding value. A PhD for the sake of a PhD is more like a vacation, and so most people won’t want to take a 5-year vacation

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#232

Post by musicale »

Mistletoe wrote: post #207
yoyohello13 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Lol! Are you new here? Y-combinator is literally about selling your soul to VC.

I'm slowly, very slowly, realizing this and that my objections to this are quite literally pissing into the wind to the wrong crowd. Begging and pleading for people to make tech that doesn't torture and depress the average user seems to just fall upon deaf ears, because all that ever mattered to them was the money.

> Begging and pleading for people to make tech that doesn't torture and depress the average user seems to just fall upon deaf ears, because all that ever mattered to them was the money.

I think there are some people on HN who care about other things than money.

I've seen a number of references here to encrapification and the rot economy, noting that chasing unlimited growth seems to lead to harmful, anti-social technology businesses.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#233

Post by ocschwar »

fooker wrote: post #220
ocschwar wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research. " Frankly, no. Because as beautiful as that concept is, it's 6 years in your younger decades, where the magic of compound interest makes every dollar you save or spend count a lot more than any money you make later in life. Add tuition and loans, also with compound intere…

> Add tuition and loans There are no tutions and loans for a PhD. It's free. Additionaly, you earn a small salary that can be bumped up to the median wage with internships. Imagine spending your twenties without financial obligations, working on one problem you love without it having to make a business sense.

I would have loved it. NO doubt.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#234

Post by avs733 »

vonneumannstan wrote: post #92

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the only real reason to do a PhD now, there are far more PhDs graduating per year than open faculty positions. Many get stuck in Postdoc or adjunct hell for years and can never get a tenure track role.

Most stem PhDs actually go into industry. In fact, in my department I would say 60% or more go directly to industry and we are a field with growing faculty opportunities.

The immediate post graduation employment of all PhDs is very high 74% in 2023 up from 68% in 2018 and the highest since 1993. Interestingly difference between stem and non stem is effectively moot.

I continue to be shocked in this thread at the factual statements being thrown around that there is easy data to push back on from the nationally managed survey of earned doctorates.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#235

Post by selimthegrim »

Liebmann5 wrote: post #175

I got caught cheating in my very last college course so can never get my PhD. I use to be atrocious at school bc I had adhd and was about to drop but did a complete 180 and finally learned how to learn which changed everything. I discovered my love for Math and my immediate and only goal from that point forward was to get my PhD. My temple became the library and would go there immediately after class and every weeken…

>In a PhD program you are given unlimited resources to make that happen.

Did you ignore almost every other comment in this thread when you wrote this?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#236

Post by yoyohello13 »

Mistletoe wrote: post #207
yoyohello13 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Lol! Are you new here? Y-combinator is literally about selling your soul to VC.

I'm slowly, very slowly, realizing this and that my objections to this are quite literally pissing into the wind to the wrong crowd. Begging and pleading for people to make tech that doesn't torture and depress the average user seems to just fall upon deaf ears, because all that ever mattered to them was the money.

I hear you. I come here because there are often interesting articles about new tech coming out. But reading the comments around here really depresses me sometimes. This is the last bit of social media I consume these days, but it’s probably best for my mental health to stop HN too.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#237

Post by FigurativeVoid »

My younger brother has his phd in engineering from a top tier university and I often worry about what it will mean for his career long term. He’s at a consulting firm now, but I’m not really sure where he’ll go next. He’s incredibly intelligent and hard working, but I’m unsure what firms are looking for engineers that have the phd price tag.

I also have many friends with humanities phds that I really hope figure something out. They are all extremely intelligent. But one is literally getting a phd in Shakespeare. Cool. I love it. But there’s like 3 openings a year and they aren’t even at a top tier school. It’s all a mess.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#238

Post by ghaff »

dgacmu wrote: post #208
declan_roberts wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference between a PhD and a hobby is money, or the presumption of it indirectly (certain jobs, etc) Or else we just call it pursing our natural hobbies and interests. You don't need to go to school for that. If you didn't need more money you wouldn't seek the accreditation.

Nah. The difference is one of (learning) rigor. Intellectual and scientific. You learn a lot in the process of getting a Ph.D. about how to think, how to analyze, and how to research.

That sounds awfully generic. It doesn't sound that different from a Master's (heck, maybe even an undergrad) program that requires a thesis. Yes, there's a difference in the sense of supposedly doing novel research, but I'm not sure the degree to which you're theoretically moving the state of the art forward justifies your time investment in many cases.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#239

Post by datavirtue »

sweeter wrote: post #135
WalterBright wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?

If you haven't noticed, people are forgoing the H1B and just remoting them in for $40k.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#240

Post by kevinsync »

michaelt wrote: post #223
declan_roberts wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference between a PhD and a hobby is money, or the presumption of it indirectly (certain jobs, etc) Or else we just call it pursing our natural hobbies and interests. You don't need to go to school for that. If you didn't need more money you wouldn't seek the accreditation.

Sure - it's just a hobby that pays money. That and the library access, and the fact that you don't have to fit it in around a job, obviously. Kinda goes without saying. And you get a supervisor who might point you in the right direction and keep you on track - but I'm sure you barely need that! Of course the equipment access and technician support goes without saying. Not like anyone else is going to be letting you u…

All incredible points, but academia still doesn't appeal to people like me in the slightest. The hierarchy, the bureaucracy, the various costs, the unreliable supposed rewards, none of it was even remotely appealing enough to do an undergraduate, let alone a masters and then a PhD. Funny thing is, the hierarchy, the bureaucracy, the various costs, the unreliable supposed rewards, related to industries of technology, art, music, culture, essentially the exact same environment, did and do, and I've happily paid (in money, blood, sweat and tears) to participate in those.

I wonder what it is exactly that makes the same exact thing appealing wearing one outfit versus the other.

I feel like if we can solve that, we can restore some kind of respect for and desire for "academia", which seems like it's very much fallen out of vogue in culture lately.

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