Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 485 posts

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#221

Post by pedrosorio »

jvanderbot wrote: post #203
palmotea wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Not surprising at all. It's a forum run by a VC firm populated with a decent number of people who are wannabe founders, trying to jump on the latest fad, hoping to win the startup jackpot. And (way back when it was small), I think a big part of the appeal was you could rub shoulders with some VC people and fo…

I don't get it. I was neither a nepo baby or aspiring monk. What I was, was a kid from a non academic family who wanted more than my small town education could provide. I wanted to push myself to learn at a deeper level and prove it by becoming one of a different crowd of technologists. Maybe these are misguided motivations but they were undeniable and not at all about asceticism or idle riches. It was absolutely wor…

> learn at a deeper level and prove it by becoming one of a different crowd of technologists

The “prove you’re special” motivation is definitely a strong third reason that does not align with the nepotism baby or monk archetypes

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#222

Post by fooker »

BeetleB wrote: post #76
morelandjs wrote: post #48

The smartest people I’ve ever worked with to date were from physics grad school. Still remember the time my coworker was doing code profiling, decided he was unhappy that the exponential function from the standard library was too slow, and decided to write a Taylor series approximation that gave him the precision he needed and cut the run time in half. He also learned C++ in a weekend and was vastly better at it by t…

I don't want to take away from his brilliance, but generally Taylor approximations perform far worse than the standard library implementations. It's also the first tool of choice for physicists, so who knows ...? My guess, though, is that if he improved the performance, he used some other wizardry (Chebyshev or something similar).

The standard library implementations use Taylor approximations

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#223

Post by michaelt »

declan_roberts wrote: post #169
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

The only difference between a PhD and a hobby is money, or the presumption of it indirectly (certain jobs, etc) Or else we just call it pursing our natural hobbies and interests. You don't need to go to school for that. If you didn't need more money you wouldn't seek the accreditation.

Sure - it's just a hobby that pays money.

That and the library access, and the fact that you don't have to fit it in around a job, obviously. Kinda goes without saying.

And you get a supervisor who might point you in the right direction and keep you on track - but I'm sure you barely need that!

Of course the equipment access and technician support goes without saying. Not like anyone else is going to be letting you use their scanning electron microscope for free.

Having peers working alongside you who share your values of intellectual curiosity, working in the same field and who are your equals academically is also of little to no importance - who needs 'em?

There's the international travel for conferences, but really that's pretty burdensome. I for one don't want to traipse through airports and mess up my routine just to have conversations with world-leading experts on my topic of interest; I'd rather be at home relaxing.

I can't imagine anyone would be drawn to the 50% female working environment, with hundreds of smart, beautiful single women aged 18-22. Who gives a shit about that? Barely even a benefit really.

Other than the intellectual curiosity, the pay, the library and journal access, the time it gives you to study, the supervision, the equipment and technicians, the peers, the international travel, and all the young women - what have the Romans ever done for us?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#224

Post by hanslovsky »

yodsanklai wrote: post #101

As usual, lot of PhD bashing in the comments. My experience was generally positive. The good things 1. I had mostly fun doing it. Being paid to learn things is great. 2. I got to work in different countries, and travel to many places 3. I was able to have more than one career. PhD + academia, before switching to industry. Gave me more perspectives. 4. I did learn a few things and skills (public speaking, I learned a…

I had pretty much the same experience, except I left for industry right after finishing my PhD

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#225

Post by janalsncm »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> HN turns out to be a very money-centric place

In defense of being money centric, we are not talking about yachts and drugs level money. To me, money means buying a house, starting a family, taking care of my parents, looking after my own health, and overall stability. These are the hallmarks of what used to be a middle class lifestyle in America.

If people are getting PhDs to earn more money long term, these are also not people who intend to live lavishly. It only seems exceptional because almost every other avenue to previously “normal” life has been closed off.

There’s nothing wrong with studying something because you’re interested in it. But for me, it would’ve likely meant foregoing the above.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#226

Post by fooker »

ATechGuy wrote: post #105

The choice is simple: work for next Nvidia or pursue academia?

The former if you have a crystal ball to predict the future. In which case you might not have to work anyway.

The later if you love working in a particular field and want a reasonably straightforward path to success.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#227

Post by ghaff »

brailsafe wrote: post #219
jvanderbot wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. I was neither a nepo baby or aspiring monk. What I was, was a kid from a non academic family who wanted more than my small town education could provide. I wanted to push myself to learn at a deeper level and prove it by becoming one of a different crowd of technologists. Maybe these are misguided motivations but they were undeniable and not at all about asceticism or idle riches. It was absolutely wor…

Ya but, based on the brief resume in your profile, you've also probably made out quite well, no? Is that a completely incidental thing, or do you think you'd feel even a little differently if what you earned throughout your intellectual journey ended up leaving you financially vulnerable, whatever that would mean in your geographic region? To me it's a question of how much cost a person should reasonably incur in ord…

In STEM, PhDs are probably not terrible financial outcomes in general (in that they probably mostly avoid a huge amount of student loan debt and may offer a leg-up for some commercial opportunities), but they also may be sub-optimal financially in many cases relative to just landing a job out of academia earlier.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#228

Post by cageface »

jltsiren wrote: post #211
bsder wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research. What people are, quite rightly, pointing out about getting a PhD is the "will live in poverty for a decade+ with better odds of winning the lottery than getting a tenured position to do research". Even if you want to do research, you have to eat, too.

The actual chances of getting a tenured position (or another permanent academic position with research opportunities) are more like 1 in 3, or even better. Most people who get a PhD and are in priciple interested in staying in the academia leave, because they are not willing to make the necessary choices. And the biggest reason why people leave is not the pay, the stress, the politics, the struggle for grants, the pu…

When I was in graduate school the chances of getting a tenured position weren't anywhere close to 1 in 3. Where are you getting that number?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#229

Post by musicale »

ocschwar wrote: post #213

Good. Academia is done growing. We're in a steady state, which means if you're in grad school, look at your advisor. Look at the other grad students who have him. Look at the work of the grad students who came before you, with this advisor. Think about the ones that will come after. Only ONE of you will take your advisor's place, statistically speaking. If you an afford to pursue a PHD for the sake of doing the work…

> Only ONE of you will take your advisor's place, statistically speaking

The academic pyramid was never sustainable.

However, for some fields (science and engineering being good examples) there are decent jobs outside of academia.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#230

Post by ghaff »

fooker wrote: post #220
ocschwar wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research. " Frankly, no. Because as beautiful as that concept is, it's 6 years in your younger decades, where the magic of compound interest makes every dollar you save or spend count a lot more than any money you make later in life. Add tuition and loans, also with compound intere…

> Add tuition and loans There are no tutions and loans for a PhD. It's free. Additionaly, you earn a small salary that can be bumped up to the median wage with internships. Imagine spending your twenties without financial obligations, working on one problem you love without it having to make a business sense.

In some fields, possibly.

I will absolutely not argue that you should do whatever will make you the most money.

But just as absolutely, a PhD isn't the right answer for a lot of people. I thought about it at various points and it wouldn't have been the right choice for me even taking money out of the equation.

Post reply on HN