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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#211

Post by jltsiren »

bsder wrote: post #170
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research. What people are, quite rightly, pointing out about getting a PhD is the "will live in poverty for a decade+ with better odds of winning the lottery than getting a tenured position to do research". Even if you want to do research, you have to eat, too.

The actual chances of getting a tenured position (or another permanent academic position with research opportunities) are more like 1 in 3, or even better. Most people who get a PhD and are in priciple interested in staying in the academia leave, because they are not willing to make the necessary choices.

And the biggest reason why people leave is not the pay, the stress, the politics, the struggle for grants, the publish-or-perish mentality, or whatever else people are complaining about. It's the forced relocation. You can choose where you live, or you can try to get an academic job, but you can't reasonably expect both. Universities are wherever they are, and their needs for new faculty are unpredictable and highly specific. If you are not prepared to drop everything else indefinitely and move to a place that is actually willing to hire someone like you, you are not serious about staying in the academia.

It turns out most people are not that career-oriented.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#212

Post by saturn8601 »

ckrapu wrote: post #108

The PhD is has become the de facto replacement for the advanced workforce training programs (apprenticeship, guilds, corporate talent development programs) that many civilizations used to use. For some fields, you really do need to bang your head against a small number of problems without anyone holding your hand before you become proficient. Not all PhD graduates get there; many just skate by because no one wants to…

That may not be entirely true. Just look at all these people working in semiconductor fabs that China is trying to copy. A lot of that knowledge is institutional knowledge gathered from decades of specializing in one tiny area of the chain. That knowledge may be in a PHD program somewhere but more likely it is only on the job training.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#213

Post by ocschwar »

Good. Academia is done growing. We're in a steady state, which means if you're in grad school, look at your advisor. Look at the other grad students who have him. Look at the work of the grad students who came before you, with this advisor. Think about the ones that will come after.

Only ONE of you will take your advisor's place, statistically speaking.

If you an afford to pursue a PHD for the sake of doing the work and getting the education, go for it. If you have to make the PhD pencil out financially, think long and hard before enrolling. And if your ambition is to be a full professor, reread the first paragraph.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#214

Post by lmm »

currymj wrote: post #109
comrade1234 wrote: post #19

Credit Suisse here in Switzerland used to only hire PhDs for programming positions. It didn’t matter what the PhD was in - they’d train you how to program. Note: credit Suisse collapsed a few years ago and now no longer exists.

their collapse didn't have anything to do with computer systems failing though. they just spent a period of about 10 years making sure they were involved in every major financial scandal due to poor judgment.

> they just spent a period of about 10 years making sure they were involved in every major financial scandal due to poor judgment.

Hard to imagine any relationship between that outcome and a policy of exclusively hiring a demographic that's notorious for having high intellectual skills but low life experience. Wait, no, not hard. Easy.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#215

Post by lmm »

barry-cotter wrote: post #181
comrade1234 wrote: post #19

Credit Suisse here in Switzerland used to only hire PhDs for programming positions. It didn’t matter what the PhD was in - they’d train you how to program. Note: credit Suisse collapsed a few years ago and now no longer exists.

“Collapsed” It was acquired by UBS in 2023.

It was "acquired" at the demand of the Swiss regulator because it was bankrupt.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#216

Post by ocschwar »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

"It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research. "

Frankly, no. Because as beautiful as that concept is, it's 6 years in your younger decades, where the magic of compound interest makes every dollar you save or spend count a lot more than any money you make later in life.

Add tuition and loans, also with compound interest, and well, I have no resentment against people from wealthy enough backgrounds that they can just do this. If that's how want to use your privileged background, nothing but respect from me.

But 99% of us have to consider the money.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#217

Post by melagonster »

michaelt wrote: post #206
NeutralCrane wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of living and income inequality are soaring. Huge swaths of the population are living in crippling debt because they believed that it was worth it to spend tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars to go to school and learn about what interested them, only to find out it didn’t lead anywhere and they have hamstrung themselves financially for the rest of their lives. It shouldn’t be surprising that people ar…

HN has been like this forever, it's not a recent thing. When the tech job market and startup ecosystem is weak, HN will say you shouldn't do a PhD because of the cost of living and the worrying job market once you get out. When the tech job market and startup ecosystem is strong, HN will say you shouldn't do a PhD because of the opportunity cost and the attractive job market that'll pay six figures to anyone with a p…

Obviously, this is because computer science offers many interesting jobs. But in other regions, these jobs are hidden after Phd.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#218

Post by sangnoir »

ocschwar wrote: post #213

Good. Academia is done growing. We're in a steady state, which means if you're in grad school, look at your advisor. Look at the other grad students who have him. Look at the work of the grad students who came before you, with this advisor. Think about the ones that will come after. Only ONE of you will take your advisor's place, statistically speaking. If you an afford to pursue a PHD for the sake of doing the work…

Instructors ⊂ Academia

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#219

Post by brailsafe »

jvanderbot wrote: post #203
palmotea wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Not surprising at all. It's a forum run by a VC firm populated with a decent number of people who are wannabe founders, trying to jump on the latest fad, hoping to win the startup jackpot. And (way back when it was small), I think a big part of the appeal was you could rub shoulders with some VC people and fo…

I don't get it. I was neither a nepo baby or aspiring monk. What I was, was a kid from a non academic family who wanted more than my small town education could provide. I wanted to push myself to learn at a deeper level and prove it by becoming one of a different crowd of technologists. Maybe these are misguided motivations but they were undeniable and not at all about asceticism or idle riches. It was absolutely wor…

Ya but, based on the brief resume in your profile, you've also probably made out quite well, no? Is that a completely incidental thing, or do you think you'd feel even a little differently if what you earned throughout your intellectual journey ended up leaving you financially vulnerable, whatever that would mean in your geographic region?

To me it's a question of how much cost a person should reasonably incur in order to pursue one's interests, and I think the amount of people with absurd student loan debt and time spent, compared to their earning potential, is at meme status for millennials and zoomers.

To be clear, I do think the motivations aren't inherently misguided, but they could be, and my guess is that people are taking their potential outcomes more seriously.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#220

Post by fooker »

ocschwar wrote: post #216
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

"It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research. " Frankly, no. Because as beautiful as that concept is, it's 6 years in your younger decades, where the magic of compound interest makes every dollar you save or spend count a lot more than any money you make later in life. Add tuition and loans, also with compound intere…

> Add tuition and loans

There are no tutions and loans for a PhD. It's free. Additionaly, you earn a small salary that can be bumped up to the median wage with internships.

Imagine spending your twenties without financial obligations, working on one problem you love without it having to make a business sense.

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