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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#141

Post by KPGv2 »

sweeter wrote: post #135
WalterBright wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?

Because this is ostensibly illegal, and it would be nice if someone enforced the fucking law (H1Bs must be paid the market rate, and it's supposed to be enforced by the Department of Labor). But the entirety of US government apparati are geared toward helping big corps make money. It's just a question of which big corps (modern Democratic party is soooo captured by Big Tech).

Of course, one of them also supports fascism; I'm not "both sides"ing.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#142

Post by nemomarx »

naniwaduni wrote: post #129
dgacmu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to the new administration I would have pointed out that US CS and engineering Ph.D.s are generally paid with a stipend that's "just enough to live on". There's even a website: https://csstipendrankings.org/ I disagree a little with their cost of living calculations - they're off in both directions for areas I know reasonably well. Most Ph.D. students can live for something under the MIT living wage calculations…

The MIT "living wage" figures are, to put it lightly, utterly deranged; more a statement of the purveyors's ideal of a first-world standard of living than a reflection of reality. If they are to be believed, then evidently grad students—or really like, half the population??—must not be alive. As maligned as the poverty lines are—and they do have plenty of shortcomings—they are still a far closer approximation of "the…

generally "living wage" in these contexts also covers like, a house and being able to take care of dependents + maybe a partner?

Which is generally above poverty levels right

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#143

Post by janalsncm »

marklar423 wrote: post #116
janalsncm wrote: post #85

I considered a PhD in machine learning. It’s mostly downsides. Granted, most fields are not like this but: 1) The field moves too fast to focus on a single thing for 4 years. A lot of people were devastated when ChatGPT essentially solved their NLP tasks. 2) Cutting edge NLP/vision research is being done in industrial labs as much as universities. And industry will probably outgun you with equipment (GPUs) and high q…

What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters? Everyone I talk to seems to say a Masters in CompSci is useless, and that you may as well do a PhD instead.

A lot of job requirements that I see ask for Masters or PhD, so you’re hitting the minimum requirement plus giving yourself a shot of having applicable work experience (read: doesn’t write spaghetti code). That said, there’s probably a huge selection bias due to my background.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#144

Post by KPGv2 »

cudgy wrote: post #122
null_shift wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he already knew how to code in other object oriented languages, and was really just learning C++ syntax over the weekend, it’s not as much of a stretch.

C++ is one of the most flexible and unopinionated languages you could ever encounter. The idea that someone who knows a high-level object-oriented language could translate that to immediate success in low-level C++ syntax at a level higher than the experts that developed the libraries over a weekend is frankly fantastical.

> the experts that developed the libraries over a weekend is frankly fantastical.

this is not synonymous with "most [C++ programmers] in industry"

The claim was the person learned it better than most people in industry, not most people writing the libraries upon which the industry is based

EDIT: Also we don't technically know when this happened. If this story is from the 1990s, it's a lot more likely, because think of how many shitty C++ programmers there were back then since we didn't have all the language options we do now. It was still the language taught in schools, for example. Then it was Java and Python and JS etc. But back then, Jonny Mackintosh was writing bad C++ out of uni.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#145

Post by scarface_74 »

KPGv2 wrote: post #141
sweeter wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?

Because this is ostensibly illegal, and it would be nice if someone enforced the fucking law (H1Bs must be paid the market rate, and it's supposed to be enforced by the Department of Labor). But the entirety of US government apparati are geared toward helping big corps make money. It's just a question of which big corps (modern Democratic party is soooo captured by Big Tech). Of course, one of them also supports fasc…

President Musk specifically said he wants to focus on getting more H1-B visa holders in the US

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-vi...

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#146

Post by snailmailstare »

sweeter wrote: post #135
WalterBright wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?

My impression is that there are prized PhD jobs that people go back to school in anticipation of and there are essentially non-PhD jobs that are filled by people who don't go back or H1B workers who have a PhD.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#147

Post by CJefferson »

One of the extra problems in the UK is that PhDs in STEM were massively centralised into “Doctoral Training Centers”. It used to be whenever I applied for a grant I would add funding for a PhD. Now that’s forbidden, and instead most universities have little PhD funding, and a few have far too much.

This means most students don’t get to be integrated into a research group, and many supervisors get very little funding for students as their university doesn’t have the funding.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#148

Post by KPGv2 »

scarface_74 wrote: post #145
KPGv2 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this is ostensibly illegal, and it would be nice if someone enforced the fucking law (H1Bs must be paid the market rate, and it's supposed to be enforced by the Department of Labor). But the entirety of US government apparati are geared toward helping big corps make money. It's just a question of which big corps (modern Democratic party is soooo captured by Big Tech). Of course, one of them also supports fasc…

President Musk specifically said he wants to focus on getting more H1-B visa holders in the US https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/musk-vivek-ramaswamy-h1b-vi...

I'm not surprised the richest man in the world will commit all manner of sin, because one more dollar might be the one to fill that gaping hole where his heart should be.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#149

Post by gyomu »

parpfish wrote: post #119
yodsanklai wrote: post #101

As usual, lot of PhD bashing in the comments. My experience was generally positive. The good things 1. I had mostly fun doing it. Being paid to learn things is great. 2. I got to work in different countries, and travel to many places 3. I was able to have more than one career. PhD + academia, before switching to industry. Gave me more perspectives. 4. I did learn a few things and skills (public speaking, I learned a…

I had a ton of fun in my PhD. It probably wasn’t the best route if I was trying to maximize total lifetime earnings, but I’m happy with the route I took. In fact I liked it enough that I often joke that my retirement plan will be to get into another PhD program for the stipend/insurance and just do projects to help some junior prof get their career going

> my retirement plan will be to get into another PhD program for the stipend/insurance

Imagine being a young ambitious student not getting placed into a PhD program because some old dude doing it for the benefits and the lolz took the spot.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#150

Post by KPGv2 »

seydor wrote: post #140
KPGv2 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PhD research was never about financial security You're looking at this wrong. PhD was always about financial security for the vast majority of PhDs. You think all those Chinese and Korean etc. students are coming to study engineering to get invited to the good parties back home? No, they're doing it because it provides financial security. Same for places all over the world. Europe, everywhere. It's basically upper…

i believe you re talking about financial secutiry after the Phd, not during

Yes, I was.

I suspect most PhD candidates who are considering a future career in academia are thinking about financial security after, not during. So if we're talking about why are there fewer PhD candidates...

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