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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

461–470 of 1001 posts

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#461

Unfortunately it is not the first time a good developer leaves the project for a famous "Linu(s)x shitshow", and it will not be the latest... I don't believe in the Linux project since a few years now, especially as "the bearded ones" are not interested in moving the project to a certain future, but only jerking on their old own code. Good luck for the futur Hector, and thanks for what you managed to do until now wit…

> I don't believe in the Linux project since a few years now, especially as "the bearded ones" are not interested in moving the project to a certain future, but only jerking on their old own code.

I personally lost my confidence in it when they stopped properly triaging security issues and flooded everyone interested with just noise.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#462
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its quite a well-known wisdom. I think someone in one of Nintendo or Sony's studios has said it too, in the form of: a complaint is worth twice a compliment. Satisfied customers will tell you they think your stuff is great, but dissatisfied customers will be able to hone in on exactly where the problem is. You can even extend this to personal life: if someone tells you your shabby car doesn't fit with the nice suits…

One does not "hone in" on anything. To hone a thing is to make it sharper or more acute by removing parts of it with an abrasive. The word you are looking for is "home", as in a homing missile, etc. Yes, this is a criticism. Hopefully it's twice as effective as being nice. 8)

Multiple dictionaries recognize the usage of "hone in" to mean "sharpening" your focus on something rather than "home in" which is to move towards something.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#463
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not how the kernel works. You cannot rely on someone's "commitment" or "promise". Kernel maintainers was to have very good control over the kernel and they want strong separation of concern. As long as this is not delivered, it will be very hard to accept the Rust changes.

At some level this is just concern trolling. There is nothing the Rust developers could possibly do or say that would alleviate the concern you've just expressed. You are asking for something that is impossible. What could they possibly "deliver" beyond a strong commitment to fix the code in a timely manner themselves?

> There is nothing the Rust developers could possibly do or say that would alleviate the concern you've just exprssed.

They could do exactly what Ted Ts'o suggested in his email [1] that Marcan cited: They could integrate more into the existing kernel-development community, contribute to Linux in general, not just in relation to their pet projects, and over time earn trust that, when they make promises with long time horizons, they can actually keep them. Because, if they can't keep those promises, whoever lets their code into the kernel ends up having to keep their promises for them.

[1] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed...

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#464
post #93

Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…

> Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o (https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed...) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line")

Can I say that I was immediately put off by the author conflating the "thin blue line" quote from with a political orientation?

The full quote (from the article) being: "Later in that thread, another major maintainer unironically stated “We are the ‘thin blue line’”, and nobody cared, which just further confirmed to me that I don’t want to have anything to do with them."

The way I read it, "thin blue line" is being used as a figure of speech. I get what they are referring to and I don't see an endorsement. It doesn't necessarily means a right-wing affiliation or sympathy.

To me it seems like the author is projecting a right-wing affiliation and a political connotation where there is none (at least not officially, as far as I can see on https://thunk.org/tytso/) in order to discredit Theodore Ts'o. Which is a low point, because attacking Ts'o on a personal level means Martin is out of ammunitions to back their arguments.

But then again, Hector Martin is the same person that though that brigading and shaming on social media is an acceptable approach to collaboration in the open source space:

    "If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas."
from https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/404

To me, from outside, Hector Martin looks like a technically talented but otherwise toxic person that is trying to use public shaming on social media and ranting on his blog as tools and tactics to impose their will and force the otherwise democratic process of development the linux kernel. And the on top of everything it's behaving like a victim.

It's a good thing they are resigning, in my opinion.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#465
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The backwards compatibility guarantee for C is "C99 compilers can compile C99 code". If they can't, that's a compiler bug. Same for other C standards. Since Rust doesn't have a standard, the guarantee is "whatever the current version of the compiler can compile". To check if they broke anything they compile everything on crates.io (called a crater run). But if you check results of crater runs, almost every release so…

What do you mean? Rust 1.0 can compile Rust 1.0. Rust 1.1 can compile Rust 1.1.

But Rust 1.0 can't compile Rust 1.1.

And as others have noted, C99 is a standard and Rust lacks one.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I think it's not important in the context of this discussion. Whatever their views are, I am not willing to be forced to think about them.

…So it is about the fact that you object to his support for transgender people? Surely you see why this is, actually, directly relevant and important context for your statement. It’s not some general political leaning you’re talking about - lumping this (prejudice against a minority group) into the same category as something like banal disagreements over taxation policy amounts to deliberately obscuring what you’re s…

And here we go again, there is never a neutral position with some people.

I support the freedom of people chosing their sex or gender. At the same time, I'm not willing to fight their wars. And if they force me to go to war, then I pass.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any backwards incompatibilities are explicitly opt-in through the edition system, or fixing a compiler bug. This is a very persistent myth, but it’s wrong. Adding any public method to any impl can break BC (because its name might conflict with a user-defined method in a trait), and the Rust project adds methods to standard library impls all the time.

That's true for literally every non static function in C, given the lack of namespaces. So it can't be a blocker.

New versions of gcc don't cause new C standard library functions to exist.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many ways to state that without invoking corruption. I think Ted is telling the truth of who he is by choosing that phrase intentionally - we aren't talking about an idiot who just says stuff, he's a smart guy.

Given that "invoking corruption" is neither the plain meaning of those words, nor does it even make sense in this context, I don't think it's reasonable to claim Ted did so.

Ted Tso is an American, he was born in California, did his schooling in the US, and has worked here most (all?) of his career. As such he can be expected to know that "the thin blue line" is an idiom that carries with it a lot of connotation.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume he was aware of the implications of his words and chose to use them anyway.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is par for the course I guess, and what exhausts folks like marcan. I wouldn't want to work with someone like Ted Tso'o, who clearly has a penchant for flame wars and isn't interested in being truthful. I am acquainted with Ted via the open source community, we have each other on multiple social media networks, and I think he's a really great person. That said, I also recognize when he gets into flame wars wit…

> I can think of many times Ted was overly hyperbolic, but he was ultimately correct. Here is the part of the Linux project I don't like sometimes, which was recently described well in this recent thread. Being correct, or at least being subjectively correct by having extremely persuasive arguments, yet being toxic... is still toxic and unacceptable. I want to say that I am thankful in this world that I am a truly an…

There are plenty of "nerd famous" people who manage it by just not being an asshole. If you're already an asshole being "nerd famous" is going to be rough, yes, but maybe just don't be one?

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#470
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"These people are members of a community who care about where they live... So what I hear is people caring very loudly at me." -- Leslie Knope that's a very healthy and - I feel - correct attitude towards this kind of criticism. I love when wisdom comes from stupid places.

Its quite a well-known wisdom. I think someone in one of Nintendo or Sony's studios has said it too, in the form of: a complaint is worth twice a compliment. Satisfied customers will tell you they think your stuff is great, but dissatisfied customers will be able to hone in on exactly where the problem is. You can even extend this to personal life: if someone tells you your shabby car doesn't fit with the nice suits…

> dissatisfied customers will be able to hone in on exactly where the problem is

This sounds like a truism, when it isn't. The client may know something is wrong, but good luck at them identifying it. Some times, the client will convince themselves that something is wrong when it isn't. There were people complaining about lag in WoW, they responded by cutting the latency number in half... except that it wasn't cut in half, it was just measured as time to server rather than roundtrip. The complains died out immediately and they were hailed as "very savvy developers that listen to their customers".

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