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Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

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Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#151

Post by kragen »

Justta wrote: post #148
empath75 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's one good reason to believe that they wrote it down (mostly) unaltered and continued transmitting it (mostly) unaltered, which is that they continued copying it and reciting it well past the point where they even understood what many of the words meant any more, and they developed a lot of techniques to recite it and memorize it based purely on phonemes and developed ideas about how the sounds themselves carri…

Proof that oral tradition started 2000 years before it was written?

Probably more like 1000–1500. There is an extensive academic literature on the topic.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#152

Post by Justta »

FlyingSnake wrote: post #84
iamshs wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a Hindu Nationalist website and a claim. They forcefully fit Indus Script into Sanskrit, to try to outflank the Aryan Invasion Theory. It is not making anywhere but only in Brahmin circles.

Like I said, I am not sold on the idea because it seems like curve fitting to me. However in the spirit of scientific inquiry, we should allow them to share their ideas. Purely based on the content of the website, I fail to see anywhere on the website allusions to Hindu Nationalism. The website contains a paper from acadamia.edu showing their analysis. Lastly the claim about "Brahmin circles" also seems malicious bec…

What else it is other than Hindu Nationalistic when It says Indus script is Sanskrit?

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#153

Post by throwfmon »

incompatible wrote: post #136
Shorel wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whether a group moved from the Caucasus to South Asia or vice versa, around 5k years ago, shouldn't really matter. It's not that it "matters" in a political or nationalistic sense. That's an error in interpretation of the motivation for this kind of work. It is important because the more we know about how we got where we are, the better. Science is useful, if it is not immediately obvious, then future generations w…

The research is fine. I'm referring to the likes of Hindutva trying to establish that the Aryans were "indigenous" to India and subsequently migrated elsewhere, thus proving that Hindus alone are indigenous to India. The out-of-india theory referred to above.

Hindutva says Islamists and white Europeans were invders. Hows that wrong?

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#154

Post by saran945 »

never_inline wrote: post #90
Quarrelsome wrote: post #87

has anyone else encountered the Hindu nationalist perspective when discussing this? I've struggled to suggest this is a scientific reality when talking to some otherwise smart people about this and I suspect this is in part to their vulnerability to Hindu nationalist talking points which I assume tend to big up local ancestry instead of an ancestry that connects a lot of different peoples and religions together. Just…

Both nationalist side and the other side (AIT/AMT) take this very emotionally. Recently NCERT books were edited indicating that the Rig-vedic people were a continuation of Harappans. On the other hand, the popular science and journalism has not done any favours by framing the IE studies as "The Aryans brought the Vedas with them from Europe", which is wrong at so many levels. The AMT/AIT was also weaponized by certai…

“The AMT/AIT was also weaponized by certain political elements in India to proliferate harassment against the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu”

I was born and raised in Tamil Nadu, having lived there for over two decades. In my experience, I have not witnessed any widespread harassment specifically targeting Brahmins. While isolated incidents may exist—just as they do for various communities across all states—there is no substantial evidence to suggest a systemic issue. Could you provide concrete examples, statistics, or credible sources to substantiate this claim ?

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#155

Post by FlyingSnake »

Justta wrote: post #152
FlyingSnake wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, I am not sold on the idea because it seems like curve fitting to me. However in the spirit of scientific inquiry, we should allow them to share their ideas. Purely based on the content of the website, I fail to see anywhere on the website allusions to Hindu Nationalism. The website contains a paper from acadamia.edu showing their analysis. Lastly the claim about "Brahmin circles" also seems malicious bec…

What else it is other than Hindu Nationalistic when It says Indus script is Sanskrit?

This blind hate against Sanskrit is really sad.

Sanskrit is a language that goes beyond Hinduism. Almost all important Buddhist Sutras and influential works like Mulamadhyamakkarika or Jaina works like Tattvartha Sutra are in Sanskrit.

Lastly Sanskrit is also the language of many secular works like Siddhanta Shiromani, Sushruta Samhita, Kama Sutra or Abhigyanashakuntalam.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#156

Post by prox »

kragen wrote: post #151
Justta wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof that oral tradition started 2000 years before it was written?

Probably more like 1000–1500. There is an extensive academic literature on the topic.

I have been reading a LOT on the topic. The date ranges usually from 1700-1200, mostly skewing towards 1700-1500. Mostly they date it based on stylistic reasons and things mentioned in them, that seem to correlate with those timeframes.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#157

Post by Zach_the_Lizard »

pishpash wrote: post #119
psychoslave wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIE reconstructions are very interesting peaces of linguistic, but they seems often mistaken. One great analogy, I first saw presented in some Linguisticae[1] video I think, is "what if we had no direct trace of Latin and we were looking to recreate proto-Romance roots." Of course Latin itself refers to very wide set of linguistic practices, with all the diversity we can imagine through time, space, individuals and e…

That's what I wonder, whether there has been any blind backtesting of the methodology itself to see how reliable it even is. Reconstructed proto-languages tend to be overly complex and unnatural.

There have been attempts to recreate (vulgar) Latin from modern day Romance languages, as well as using older forms of these languages to reconstrct what's known as Proto-Romance.

My recollection is that the complexity went the other way; Latin was more complex than the reconstructed languages, especially if the reconstruction didn't include Romanian, because the modern Romance languages became simpler over time in similar ways.

It's clear that the result is useful for understanding features of the ancestral language, but it's not perfect, and never will be.

On the other hand, comparative linguistics came long before genetics, and it is this field that first noticed a connection between the Indo-European languages.

Archaeological and especially genetic evidence now show the peoples of this language family (mostly) have shared (though distant and diluted) ancestry, so the field was broadly correct in noticing a connection.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#158

Post by prox »

singularity2001 wrote: post #112
empath75 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's one good reason to believe that they wrote it down (mostly) unaltered and continued transmitting it (mostly) unaltered, which is that they continued copying it and reciting it well past the point where they even understood what many of the words meant any more, and they developed a lot of techniques to recite it and memorize it based purely on phonemes and developed ideas about how the sounds themselves carri…

So someone wrote down chants in the 19th century and realized that similar chants were written down almost 2000 years earlier?

You also have to remember the context in which the “chants” were passed down. It is better to see the Rig Vedas and the Vedas as a ritual manual for doing a successful rite. And the success of the rite was paramount. One wrong action, one wrong word would spell disaster for the efficacy of the whole endeavor. People prepared for a long time to do the ritual.

You had several priestly functions, like the Hotar, who recites the invocations of the Veda, and there is also the Brahman. The Brahman checks if everything is done to precision and no mistakes are made. If there are, they need to do corrections.

This is another reason why one can say it has been passed down without much change. There is a critical edition by scholars that reconstructs the changes in meter that might have occurred, but nothing else.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#159

Post by cess11 »

FlyingSnake wrote: post #155
Justta wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else it is other than Hindu Nationalistic when It says Indus script is Sanskrit?

This blind hate against Sanskrit is really sad. Sanskrit is a language that goes beyond Hinduism. Almost all important Buddhist Sutras and influential works like Mulamadhyamakkarika or Jaina works like Tattvartha Sutra are in Sanskrit. Lastly Sanskrit is also the language of many secular works like Siddhanta Shiromani, Sushruta Samhita, Kama Sutra or Abhigyanashakuntalam.

This has nothing to do with the fascist movement trying to force indus into their conception of sanskrit.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#160

Post by the_player »

teleforce wrote: post #9

Related HN posts [1], [2]. Fun facts, the most common words of Indo-European Family are surprisingly very similar across Sanskrit (S) English (E) German (G) [3]. Pitara (S) Father (E) Vater (G) Matara (S) Mother (E) Mutter (G) Bhratara (S) Brother (E) Bruder (G) Duhitar (S) Daughter (E) Tochter (G) [1] New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages (147 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=369…

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