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Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

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Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#141
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Rig Veda is only 3000–3500 years old, contrary to folk traditions holding it to be much older. The Yamnaya culture is 5300 years old and only lasted 700 years. When the oldest parts of the Rig Veda were composed (and they are, incidentally, about the proper way to praise the gods, not about historical events) the Yamnaya culture had died about 1100 years ago. Those 1100 years included a lot of warfare, mostly nom…

> events in early 10th century France Were there such events? > How much effort do Not a lot. Since they don’t need to because of writing. As far as we can tell non-literate societies put in massively more effort into preserving oral traditions. Of course it’s debatable but there is some evidence that oral knowledge can be preserved for thousands of years.

> Were there such events? [That is, events in early 10th century France that eventually led to English becoming a sort of pidgin French, full of words like "eventually" and "sort" that didn't exist in Beowulf]

There certainly were; quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_I_of_Normandy (28 August 0932 – 20 November 0996):

> Richard either introduced feudalism into Normandy or he greatly expanded it. By the end of his reign, the most important Norman landholders held their lands in feudal tenure.

Normandy, as you may or may not know, is in France.

Then, a century later, his great-grandson, Duke of Normandy, conquered England, subjugating the Britons, Anglo-Saxons, et al., under a French-speaking noble elite. If Jarl Rikard had been cut down by bandits in his youth, or had merely failed to enlist the Norman landholders' swords under his banner (and that of his son, grandson, and great-grandson), the Norman invasion would not have happened. Similarly, if Richard's son Richard had been unable to escape from the court of King Louis IV in 0946, or unable to then win back Normandy from the king by force of arms, his grandson William would have been in no position to conquer—and it is unlikely that the subdivided Duchy would have been able to raise an army to successfully invade England, a feat that has not been repeated in the ensuing 959 years. And so on.

> Of course it’s debatable but there is some evidence that oral knowledge can be preserved for thousands of years.

Yes, your comment was written in reply to a comment naming one of the most surprising examples of such preservation, as a result of non-literate societies, as you said, "put[ting] put in massively more effort into preserving oral traditions". Nevertheless, they seem to preserve massively less historical knowledge despite that effort.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

am I living in a bubble in which Wikipedia gives me different articles? According to my Internet the oldest surviving fragment is from 1040CE from Nepal.

The oldest written copy may be from 1040, but this is a written copy of a written copy of a written copy of ... etc, going back another millennia or so, before we get to the oral tradition.

which is obviously pure speculation, as is the assumption that these hypothetical texts were unaltered. there might be reasons to assume that this was the case but it's still speculation

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#143
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whether a group moved from the Caucasus to South Asia or vice versa, around 5k years ago, shouldn't really matter. It's not that it "matters" in a political or nationalistic sense. That's an error in interpretation of the motivation for this kind of work. It is important because the more we know about how we got where we are, the better. Science is useful, if it is not immediately obvious, then future generations w…

The research is fine. I'm referring to the likes of Hindutva trying to establish that the Aryans were "indigenous" to India and subsequently migrated elsewhere, thus proving that Hindus alone are indigenous to India. The out-of-india theory referred to above.

Ah, I see. I agree with you then.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dyaus-pitar and Jupiter, Zeus-pater This one is slightly more interesting than a mere cognate as it is believed that the Proto-Indo-European speakers worshipped a sky god with the reconstructed name *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr ("sky-father") which is the ancestor of these (also Tyr and the like on the Germanic side). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Dy%C4%93us "*Dyēus is considered by scholars the most securely reconstructed…

What I find interesting is that the primary Turkic/Mongolic deity, Tengri, is also a sky father. There’s no shared genetic or linguistic ancestry there, just two different steppe nomad populations independently deifying the daylight sky the same way.

All steppe nomads are culturally descendent from Yamna.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#145
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you can't. In this case I believe they're already pretty confident about who the PIE speaking people are (the "Yanmaya") and this study is about tracking down where they originally lived. And they have shown that they mostly replaced the previous European population rather than transferring the languages to them. David Reich is aggressive about these genetics results though. IIRC I read a NYT story once where h…

> replaced the previous European population Primarily the male population. Genetically much higher proportion of the female population survived. Of course that’s an exaggeration as well. In much of Southern Europe and other areas the replacement was far from full.

Maybe this is how the branches of Indo-European evolved.

Laryngeals replaced by vowel lengthenings, merging of consonsants, vowel shifting based on other sounds, etc. It's like there were many different events where "Indo-European with a heavy foreign accent" suddenly emerged.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So.. No links eh?

Sir, I am not going to keep links whenever I see this rhetoric in some online news site or local newspaper.

Because you didn't see this rhetoric because you're talking shit

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story with the Indo-Europeans is basically as follows: 1. By intersecting ancient word sets of ancient Indo-European languages using comparative phonetics we can try and reconstruct the words of the proto-IE language, both their approximate sounds and approximate meanings. This gives us some information about the society. E.g., the PIE language very likely had a word for wheel, which puts the common PIE community…

> the society of Rig-Veda I fail to understand how the Rigvedic society can be connected to this DNA research. Rigveda never mentions anything beyond the Punjab/Swat/Haryana region in any of the hymns. The flora and fauna mentioned in it is also exclusive to this region. Lastly there is no mention of an ancient homeland both in Rigveda and Avesta.

[deleted]

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual surviving texts are even less than 2000 years old. one just beliefs that the oral tradition was written down pretty unaltered but that's questionable in my opinion

There's one good reason to believe that they wrote it down (mostly) unaltered and continued transmitting it (mostly) unaltered, which is that they continued copying it and reciting it well past the point where they even understood what many of the words meant any more, and they developed a lot of techniques to recite it and memorize it based purely on phonemes and developed ideas about how the sounds themselves carri…

Proof that oral tradition started 2000 years before it was written?

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#149

has anyone else encountered the Hindu nationalist perspective when discussing this? I've struggled to suggest this is a scientific reality when talking to some otherwise smart people about this and I suspect this is in part to their vulnerability to Hindu nationalist talking points which I assume tend to big up local ancestry instead of an ancestry that connects a lot of different peoples and religions together. Just…

The intersection of nationalism and archaeology can get _really_ weird, and depending on how deep in they are, well, you're probably not going to convince them. If nothing else, it's likely _emotionally_ important to them in a way that it probably isn't for you, the contrived nationalistic narrative being part of, essentially, a belief system. For a particularly extreme example of this, see Great Zimbabwe, a ruined c…

It wasn't illegal. The official interpretation however, was that it was not built by locals. Any other opinion was considered "fringe". Which was ironic. Since local origin of these buildings was pretty much consensus among historians before Rhodesia was even a thing.

Then again. Rhodesia didn't last very long. And nobody outside cared much what they thought.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The oldest written copy may be from 1040, but this is a written copy of a written copy of a written copy of ... etc, going back another millennia or so, before we get to the oral tradition.

which is obviously pure speculation, as is the assumption that these hypothetical texts were unaltered. there might be reasons to assume that this was the case but it's still speculation

Only in the sense that everything we "know" about the world is speculation, inferred from our fallible senses by way of our fallible reason. The world may not actually exist, after all, being pure illusion. A common Vedanta belief is that the whole world is just a dream Brahman is having which will vanish when he wakes up. Even if the world exists, you might be dreaming right now, and I might not have actually replied to your comment. Perhaps you have been in a coma for years, your loved ones desperately hoping you'll wake up, while you dream about posting poorly-thought-out comments on a web site.

But actually there are rather solid reasons for believing that the alterations in the Rig Veda over the last 3000 years have been minimal, going far beyond what is commonly described as "pure speculation". Some of them have been described already in this thread, but there is an extensive academic literature on the topic, much of it linked from the Wikipedia article you started reading.

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