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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#971

Post by account42 »

coliveira wrote: post #508
quelsolaar wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The policy of "No C++, because I don't want to deal with C++ people", should be extended to the Rust community. Whatever you think of the merits of the Rust language, the drama, the lecturing and the general superiority complex of the Rust community is quite off putting, at least to C developers.

I also agree that Linux should close the door to Rust as a matter of principle, as it has done to any other language other than C. I don't believe in a mixed language kernel, it is just nonsense, specially with such a different language such as Rust which is closer to C++ in philosophy.

I agree. If it wasn't for the memory safety meme this would have never been considered.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#972

Post by account42 »

preisschild wrote: post #655
coliveira wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also agree that Linux should close the door to Rust as a matter of principle, as it has done to any other language other than C. I don't believe in a mixed language kernel, it is just nonsense, specially with such a different language such as Rust which is closer to C++ in philosophy.

I love Linux and have no preference to either C or Rust, but locking Linux in to a programming language that was designed in the relatively early stages of computing will lead to Linux dying in the long term. There will be fewer and fewer new C programmers with people instead taking up newer systems programming languages like Rust or Zig.

Just like C++ has already led to there being fewer new C programmers and has caused C projects to die out? I don't think the programming language is a real problem for someone capable of working on the kernel. Some people might prefer to work in another language but with a large project you need to compromise in many ways and the language is just part of that.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#973

Post by account42 »

bbkane wrote: post #766
coliveira wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C and Unix have stood the test of time. It has been 50 years since they were designed, this is a long time in terms on computing. It is not unreasonable to think that they will stay for another 50 years.

Yes, they SHOULD be adding Fortran, another language that has stood the test of time, to the Linux kernel. Or... Maybe it's good that they add a new (still 10 years old) language with security and DX improvements occasionally. 50 years ago, that language was C...

Adding languages is plainly a bad idea. Migrating to a different language might make sense at a time but IMO rust is still too young to consider that.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#974

Post by account42 »

metaltyphoon wrote: post #952
chii wrote: post #907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's just hindsight. You can also argue the same for the dvorak keyboard vs qwerty. And yet, qwerty stood the test of time. Momentum and legacy is hard to displace, when the new fangled thing attemping to be an improvement is not proven, and has unknown unknowns.

> that's just hindsight. Is it? Do you think it's hindsight to use the only "successful" story as "the only way forward?" Look at the gas vs electric vehicles. Yes, displacing legacy is hard but not insurmountable when there is a clear improvement. I don't think anyone can argue in good faith the Rust is NOT an improvement in C.

Electric vehicles are also not a clear improvement over combustion engines. Which is why they need to be forced into use.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#975

Post by account42 »

Aeolun wrote: post #583
mu53 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drama is the problem, not rust. I don't know why, but either zealots choose rust or rust induces zealotry. Its exactly what Linus said.

Of perfectly moderate Rust users get annoyed with C zealots?

That might be an argument if those C zealots were trying to add their language to a Rust project. Don't play in someone else's back yard and then complain that their are not pampering you enough.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#976

Post by account42 »

threatofrain wrote: post #74
starspangled wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in Linux is "here to stay", it always has to demonstrate its worth, and what it's worth is depends enirely on the technology and its developers, not Linus.

Perhaps C is here to stay and that is the way Linux should live and naturally die. That's what's being proposed here by the guy who opposes multi-language projects.

Keeping the project single language doesn't mean that the project can't change. The C used today is not the same C used when when the project was started. Changing language is also possible. Using two different languages long-term however means that everyone effectively needs to be proficient in both languages and a lot of work is duplicated.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#977

Post by account42 »

cycomanic wrote: post #367
dralley wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor You're reading way too far into this. Linus has been publicly positive about the R4L project plenty of times.

The problem is, that he let's a maintainer say he is going to fight any Rust code getting into any "core" (whatever he considers core) part of the kernel, even if it's just a wrapper to make driver code more maintainable. I would say, that's a strategy decision that should not be up to any subsystem maintainer, that's a decision that should be up to Linus, by not intervening he essentially endorses that getting rust…

> that's a decision that should be up to Linus, by not intervening he essentially endorses that getting rust into the kernel requires consensus from all subsystem maintainers.

And that's a perfectly resonable position.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#978

Post by account42 »

ksec wrote: post #894
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

>..... Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue.......if Linus had just said "no, keep it downstream". I have been thinking for years that the reason why Linux dont attack Rust like all other languages is that his close friend or close subordinate like Greg actually like rust. So rust as a language has huge leverage within the Linus decision ment…

I always suspected it was commercial/government pressure. Hard to argue against "doing something" for safety.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#979

Post by account42 »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #582
arp242 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People forget things etc. Should probably have just asked again, or sent a small one-line patch. It's "mention something on Slack" vs "creating a GitHub issue/PR"

Then you get stories like Greg in the linked mail thread, who emailed to check after not hearing anything and got told that now he'd been annoying and it would never be done.

A story about a 17000 line patch with seemingly no discussion before dumping it on the kernel maintainers. Understandable that noone felt like reviewing it.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#980

Post by account42 »

samus wrote: post #578
arp242 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People forget things etc. Should probably have just asked again, or sent a small one-line patch. It's "mention something on Slack" vs "creating a GitHub issue/PR"

Which sounds inefficient and exactly the sort of problem that doesn't happen with a Github issue/PR.

Yeah instead the issue will be auto-closed by some bot. Yay.
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