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Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

kevin.burke.dev

161–170 of 411 posts

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#161
post #69
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, their argument is sound. It’s just missing the point of utilities. They’re saying that the cost of providing electricity to the cities, where everything is densely located and there are fewer trees and fewer overhead lines needing under grounding is lower so they should charge less to city consumers. They imply that the bulk of the cost is delivering power to the richer consumers further out because there’s a lot…

Maybe, but it's also clear that rural electrification was a huge error. People should live in clusters of at least a handful of structures where it's practical and affordable to provision electric lines (and telecommunications), or they should be off the grid altogether. What we built in the 20th century was the worst possible thing: mile after mile of transmission and distribution equipment serving dispersed houses…

This has to be the most confidently incorrect take I’ve ever read here.

The Rural Electrification Act not only brought power to rural areas, but also jobs to Americans when they were most needed, and countless follow-on benefits: increased farm productivity, longer lifespans and higher quality of life, etc.

It’s also not that subsidized compared to many other industries; the entire point of co-ops is purchasing something in bulk, with no one taking the profits. They get loans, yes, but the default rate on them is absurdly low.

And on that point, electric co-ops consistently produce reliable power at a lower cost than privately-owned utilities. I’ve experienced both, in multiple areas of the country, and by far co-ops beat everyone else.

This doesn’t even touch on the fact that the infrastructure enabled by the REA is also the only reason high speed internet ever made it to rural areas. Fiber everywhere should absolutely be a goal.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#162
post #86

I used to live in a small town in Michigan which had city provided power using a dam. It was inexpensive and highly reliable. But every couple of years the big power company in the state would try and get the city to sell them the utility. After I moved a city council for whatever reason ended up selling. As a result the cost of electricity immediately doubled and power outages occurred regularly due to reduced maint…

It sounds like your city was overprovisioned in terms of how much electricity they could supply, and you had the benefit of the cheapest power around (hydroelectric power is very cheap), so when you got plugged into the wider network that the power company was servicing, you got screwed. There's a good chance that power for neighboring towns got cheaper and/or more reliable after the deal given what happened with your power.

The town must have either been in huge financial trouble or on a privatization kick.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#164

Of course it's cost effective for cities to start their own utilities, the economies of scale work in favor of urban and suburban electrification and maintenance. What isn't effective is electrification and maintenance of low density regions although power monopolies like PG&E are required to provide service. The urban and suburban customers are effectively subsidizing the cost of transmission and maintenance for rur…

This is where distributed renewable sources can apply. Supplying a remote home with solar and storage is probably cheaper than running a distribution line to it.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#165
post #86

I used to live in a small town in Michigan which had city provided power using a dam. It was inexpensive and highly reliable. But every couple of years the big power company in the state would try and get the city to sell them the utility. After I moved a city council for whatever reason ended up selling. As a result the cost of electricity immediately doubled and power outages occurred regularly due to reduced maint…

It sounds like your city was overprovisioned in terms of how much electricity they could supply, and you had the benefit of the cheapest power around (hydroelectric power is very cheap), so when you got plugged into the wider network that the power company was servicing, you got screwed. There's a good chance that power for neighboring towns got cheaper and/or more reliable after the deal given what happened with you…

its extremely unlikely that a town in Michigan was not connected to the Eastern grid

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#166

Of course it's cost effective for cities to start their own utilities, the economies of scale work in favor of urban and suburban electrification and maintenance. What isn't effective is electrification and maintenance of low density regions although power monopolies like PG&E are required to provide service. The urban and suburban customers are effectively subsidizing the cost of transmission and maintenance for rur…

This is where distributed renewable sources can apply. Supplying a remote home with solar and storage is probably cheaper than running a distribution line to it.

I don't disagree. However, there is a positive feedback cycle lurking that can spin out of control faster than a behemoth corporation or government can react to.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#167
post #7

I am so sick of PG&E - our energy bills are nearly $1,000/mo. It's absolutely bonkers.

This can't be true. Every month?? How many kwh per month do you use, and on what?

I pay $200 per month in electricity costs. I live in a small San Francisco apartment. I have two laptops, two desktop machines (only one of which has a video card in it), two monitors, some ethernet switches and WiFi APs, a fridge, a microwave oven, and two ceiling fans.

My heat (for both air and water) is provided by the building's boiler and is included in the rent, rather than the utility bill. My stove and oven burn natural gas. My air conditioning is "open the windows and hope it's not 95F outside".

I could totally see someone who had to do electric heating and cooling having a far larger bill than I do (especially if they're living in a place that's large than a shoebox).

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#168
post #79

Boulder CO tried to do this, but failed. After a 10 year fight, Xcel's lobbying won out and the $29 million that was spent to start the process had been exhausted. We need more cities trying to do this to show how it can be done and done well. https://www.cpr.org/2020/11/20/boulder-ends-decade-long-purs...

It's one thing if a city already has one. But what advantage does the city bring to creating and operating power facilities? That requires many specialists with years of experience, in addition to great leadership. Without that, I assume the government is just a wallet to be taken advantage of.

It's similar to public transportation. Most cities don't design a system, they order it from a catalog - and they pay private consultants (similar to Oracle consultants) to tell them what to do. There is so much corruption and privatization there, but unlike power there is no business case that would make it attractive outside of public funding.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#169
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm not mistaken that's 0.08% of their revenue.

He won’t be the only person getting a bonus. Or a fancy office conference table. Or offsite team building exercises in Hawaii.

>Or a fancy office conference table

Even smaller order of magnitude than executive comp

>offsite team building exercises in Hawaii.

Source this actually happens to an extent that would materially affect the balance sheet?

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#170
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm not mistaken that's 0.08% of their revenue.

He won’t be the only person getting a bonus. Or a fancy office conference table. Or offsite team building exercises in Hawaii.

Or larger-than-they-should-be-due-to-neglecting-essential-maintenance dividends to investors.
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