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Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

kevin.burke.dev

41–50 of 411 posts

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#41
post #18

These formerly "public utilities" are now often owned by PE or Berkshire Hathaway. Whenever I see the folky wisdom of Charlie Munger or Warren Buffer posted on HN, I can't help but think about their firm's work in transforming State Farm insurance, GEICO and this gem I posted earlier today on HN: "PacifiCorp Was Grossly Negligent in Oregon’s 2020 Wildfires. Now It’s Asking Lawmakers for Protection." https://news.ycom…

None of the things you list are former public utilities of any kind, much less the specific kind under discussion (California public utility districts providing electricity and similar services.) PacifiCorp is a private utility company like PGE, formed from the merger of other (then- troubled), also private, utilities in 1910, and the other things aren't even utilities. Are there any germane examples of your “These f…

I believe Berkshire bought (or agreed to buy) part of dominion (a public utility delivering power) on the east coast, I don't know any particulars of how it was run or if the deal even closed. Thats the only related example I know of (non exhaustive).

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No can do, they are going to start taxing (hard to call that billing at that point) you based on your income. At least that was the plan last summer or so.

All utilities have usage based costs and large fixed costs. Historically, all utilities have charged solely on usage. The problem is when you have solar, or solar + battery, your usage goes way down. Unfortunately the grid still needs to be maintained and power plants at peak times (maybe a bit lower, but still high) still need to be paid for. With usage based bills, people with solar pay less than their fair share f…

I appreciate you writing a detailed response, btw.

The issue I have with this idea is that it basically punishes initiative or people who invested in energy efficient products. What’s the point if you can just wait and juice the other guy? Is the climate change a deadly serious issue or not?

Similarly, the part about taxation is self-inflicted wound, where they could have came up with a subsidy, that would have much less complains.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#44

Can the CA govt just impose prohibitive fire prevention liabilities on utility companies, bankrupt them, and scoop up the assets for free?

This is generally a horrible idea.

This is how public transit companies were generally acquired, but on the way to bankruptcy firms would defer maintenance to stave it off, which led to the sorry state of most mass transit systems today.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#46
The author estimates that electricity prices would be reduced by up to 33% (from $0.45 blended rate to $0.30), but PG&E’s profit margins are only 11%. That’s a good hint that this hypothetical is missing some important details

The article hedges against someone pointing this out by admitting that Walnut Creek is an unusually optimistic location and that PG&E is also recognizing large expenses related to ongoing infrastructure buildouts, but no solutions are offered for these caveats.

The hidden problem with projects like this is that once you roll these utilities into the city’s budget it’s too tempting to start dipping into taxpayer funds for needed improvements rather than raising electricity rates. When problems arise, politicians try to kick it down the road so it becomes their successor’s problem, or they try to offload the expense onto a growing debt load because that delays the problem to the next generation. It becomes easier to keep the highly visible rate down, but taxes might go up to cover the infrastructure costs instead.

So I’m skeptical. If there was an analysis that showed a drop in rates that was not 3X higher than the profit margins of the private utility I’d be more open to the idea, but as presented this feels like back of the envelope math that generates savings by ignoring all the details that didn’t make their way onto the envelope.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#47

The author estimates that electricity prices would be reduced by up to 33% (from $0.45 blended rate to $0.30), but PG&E’s profit margins are only 11%. That’s a good hint that this hypothetical is missing some important details The article hedges against someone pointing this out by admitting that Walnut Creek is an unusually optimistic location and that PG&E is also recognizing large expenses related to ongoing infra…

>The author estimates that electricity prices would be reduced by up to 33% (from $0.45 blended rate to $0.30), but PG&E’s profit margins are only 11%. That’s a good hint that this hypothetical is missing some important details

PG&E customers are paying very large amounts for the consequences of bad infrastructure causing wildfires and other legal costs which are being paid for with higher rates.

Example:

https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2022/12/pge-a...

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#48

The author estimates that electricity prices would be reduced by up to 33% (from $0.45 blended rate to $0.30), but PG&E’s profit margins are only 11%. That’s a good hint that this hypothetical is missing some important details The article hedges against someone pointing this out by admitting that Walnut Creek is an unusually optimistic location and that PG&E is also recognizing large expenses related to ongoing infra…

No, their argument is sound. It’s just missing the point of utilities.

They’re saying that the cost of providing electricity to the cities, where everything is densely located and there are fewer trees and fewer overhead lines needing under grounding is lower so they should charge less to city consumers.

They imply that the bulk of the cost is delivering power to the richer consumers further out because there’s a lot of line miles that need under grounding. That’s probably accurate.

But utilities are restricted from pricing like that because you don’t want utilities triaging customers that are less profitable. The article here makes the argument that the far away and expensive customers are rich, therefore fuck ‘em. I’m not familiar with California but I doubt this is true across the board. There are surely notably rich communities far from the city but surely there are also poorer areas further from the city that are relatively cheaper because the commute is worse.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#49
post #12

The author mentions the cost of buying out the distribution network, and cites SF's failed attempt to do this. The author tries to figure out the price for Walnut Creek's grid based on inflation and population -- but the $2.5B figure this is based off was rejected by PG&E. The messed up thing is PG&E as a monopoly can set the price wherever they like -- and they can demand substantial continuing payments to connect t…

I’m not specifically familiar with PG&E but the whole point of a rare case with regulators is that they cannot set the price at whatever they want. They need regulatory approval of the rate.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#50
This is absolutely a no-brainer for municipalities. The private companies are charging a premium that they return to shareholders and give to executives. Municipalities have excellent access to credit at rates significantly lower than the premium charged by utility companies. The residents get cheaper access and more influence in how the utility is ran.

The number of people that pay for-profit companies for natural gas (heat), electricity, and water in North America is absolutely bonkers. There is a specific concern about foreign corporations purchasing water rights in the American west.

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