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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#831

Post by chacham15 »

bonzini wrote: post #718
tw1984 wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no feedback whatsoever for 2 months - just because it was 17k lines - and you are blindly defending it? if you don't know what you are posting & talking about, then maybe you shouldn't. if someone is willing to put in the efforts to submit such a huge patch, how about just show them a little bit respect, I mean the minimum amount of respect, for such efforts and send them a one line reply asking them to break the pat…

> if you don't know what you are posting & talking about, then maybe you shouldn't I hate to appeal to authority, but I have been working with large cathedral-style open source projects (mostly three: GCC, QEMU, Linux itself) for about 20 years at this time and have been a maintainer for a Linux subsystem for 12. So I do know what I am posting and talking about. The very fact that I had never learned about this subsy…

> At some point I am not sure what the maintainers could do except ignoring it.

Ignoring people is a childs approach to communication. If there is a problem, its your responsibility to communicate it. If you have communicated the issue and the other party is refusing to hear it, that is a different issue, but it is your responsibility to communicate.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#832

Post by gmokki »

ivell wrote: post #733
imtringued wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true. I think the C guys told themselves that writing safe C code is just a matter of skill, but data shows that the amount of skill necessary to avoid writing unsafe C just isn't there. The average C developer isn't as competent as they claim. You can lie to yourself and say that the same security problems exist in other languages, but that isn't true. When I check the vulnerabilities marked as…

Java also had its share of remote code execution attacks. Security is quite complex domain and it is not just memory overwrites that can allow RCE attacks. Though I can agree that in average C/C++ is more vulnerable.

Most CVEs for Java are about untrusted code escaping the sandbox. No one is saying JavaScript is a bad language for server side development despite browser sandboxes constantly leaking.

Yes, there was a popular logger library that was written badly that tried to interpret log messages as potential source for fetching code dynamically from remote locations. Something that was thought to be the future 25 years ago, but had mostly been abandoned in all modern code.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#833

Post by gmokki »

cogman10 wrote: post #516
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Partially, but it takes two to tango. There are softer ways to work with abrasive attitudes that can ultimately accomplish your goals. A key part of that is knowing which battles are worth fighting. Sometimes, it's better to let a suboptimal solution in to appease an ego. I think Hector's change is the right one, but I also think with the dma maintainer being unwilling to budge the next move is to hack in a location…

Do you mean location as in different subsystem than dma, which is required for all modern devices. Or just location as in stash the files outside the dma directory?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#834

Post by diggan »

jonkoops wrote: post #652
rdtsc wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language complely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this. If a maintainer of a major subsystem has those objections, it is a good chance to try to convince them otherwise. If something is not clear, ask him to elaborate. But blackmailing with a social media c…

If you looks at the history then you will see that many different solutions have been proposed but Christoph's responses essentially boil down to 'do it somewhere else' and 'no not there', until it is basically 'not at all'. He is not in a position to make this decision, only Linus is. The patch as it stands lives outside of any sub-systems within Christoph's purview, he is simply being obstructionist out of tribalis…

> he is simply being obstructionist out of tribalism.

What about the part quoted in GPs comment?

> > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language complely breaks this

Wouldn't adding another language add an internal boundary? I don't know enough the kernel or kernel development to say it's an good argument or not, but it doesn't seem to be tribalism. I do know Rust already seems to be in some/few places in the kernel, but adding more would add more internal boundaries, as it'll get more and more divided. But again, maybe I don't understand clearly.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#835

Post by dfedbeef »

DrillShopper wrote: post #308
trashface wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maximum number", perhaps not, but Greg KH did at one point want new contributors: https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2ny1lz/im_greg_kroah... Q: What would make you even more happy with Linux? GregKH: If you contribute to it.

The kernel dev process is more pathological than what I deal with at $DAYJOB. Why the hell would I wish that upon myself?

A stable career where you can move to any of the companies who have a dependency on your subsystem.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#836

Post by seivan »

arp242 wrote: post #195
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

[dead]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#837

Post by _ph_ »

jmull wrote: post #248
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

The drama, though, is due to personalities. A directive from Linus on the technical roadmap isn't going to solve anything. It could declare someone the "winner" in this particular thread or this particular issue, but lets the personality issue fester. It's probably best for Linux to work through its technical issues in boring email threads which never get any attention on social media. And its organizational issues a…

Well, while Hector had a long history of frustrations with working with kernel development, the project of integrating rust drivers in the kernel has reached a cross-roads. Either to take the next steps or effectively close the door of the kernel progressing further with C and all the debt it brings.

From what I saw, the project of writing the graphic drivers for ARM Macs was quite a success, so the door for those projects shouldn't be closed.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#838

Post by eqvinox »

neobrain wrote: post #786
eqvinox wrote: post #709

He also got his treehouse.systems Mastodon account "suspended by a moderator". Not sure if the treehouse people have said anything more specfic, but I am entirely unsurprised given how he behaved on there. It's a quite clear case of "what you accuse others of is what you yourself resort to". He was calling out others for unreasonableness, flaming and sabotage — and did exactly that himself.

It doesn't say anything about moderator action for me. He closed the account himself: > I actually wasn't sure if I wanted to delete my Mastodon entirely or not, but as I intended to fill in my password for confirmation and decide whether to click the button, my password manager auto-submitted the form for me. Call it fate, I guess. I mostly don't regret it. Maybe I'll be back some day, maybe not. https://old.reddit.…

This is what I got when I posted my comment: https://imgur.com/a/zlNmWtF (TZ is UTC+1)

It is gone now and gives a generic "nothing here"; I have no idea whether the "suspended by moderator" display was some kind of bug, transient state, or whether he's just lying, or both things are true and he just deleted his account after it was suspended.

(Well, his Reddit post doesn't claim his Mastodon account didn't get suspended, so it'd "only" be the omission kind of lie…)

FWIW, I don't understand the logic of deleting the Mastodon account but continuing to post on Reddit… those are both "social media" in my mind…

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#839

Post by _ph_ »

metaltyphoon wrote: post #769
coliveira wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C and Unix have stood the test of time. It has been 50 years since they were designed, this is a long time in terms on computing. It is not unreasonable to think that they will stay for another 50 years.

If other, safer language would have existed the same time as C, I don’t think it would have stood the time as you say.

They did. But they were disregarded.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#840

Post by mixmastamyk »

jart wrote: post #579
Mond_ wrote: post #2

For context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42926732 https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU...

How is this not the top comment? I was scratching my head wondering until I found your links. So the smackdown from Linus is what motivated it. Honestly though if you read the email Linus is replying to, it was deserved. To be fair, Hector Martin may be one of the smartest hackers alive today. His fame goes way back to hacking the Playstation 3 with geohot and Hector has even found security vulnerabilities in Apple S…

Thanks for explaining what rust had to do with apple hardware drivers.
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