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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#511

Post by coliveira »

threatofrain wrote: post #74
starspangled wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in Linux is "here to stay", it always has to demonstrate its worth, and what it's worth is depends enirely on the technology and its developers, not Linus.

Perhaps C is here to stay and that is the way Linux should live and naturally die. That's what's being proposed here by the guy who opposes multi-language projects.

This is inevitable: Rust is proposed as a safe language, but there is no way to have a "half-secure" kernel. The only option for people who believe in Rust is to have its own kernel, and Linux should have no part on this.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#512

Post by veidr »

bhasi wrote: post #431
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

Could you please post more details on the reprimand you refer to?

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU...

> How about you accept the fact that maybe the problem is you.

> You think you know better. But the current process works.

> It has problems, but problems are a fact of life. There is no perfect.

> However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not want to have anything at all to do with your approach.

> Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social media sure as hell isn't the solution. The same way it sure as hell wasn't the solution to politics.

> Technical patches and discussions matter. Social media brigading - no than\k you.

> Linus

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#513

Post by vulcan01 »

ouraf wrote: post #418
dralley wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sima also went way too far with some of her comments this morning: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2b9b75d1-eb8e-494a-b0... Quoting > Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, [...] unironically, immediately after saying @marcan > and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner: fuck off ...is quite…

Is Sima paid for his contributions?

https://blog.ffwll.ch/about/

> Currently I work at Intel’s Linux Cloud SE group, mostly creating havoc in kernel driver’s given my more than a decade of work in the graphics subsystem. I’m also co-maintaining the graphics subsystem. I also have been drm/i915 kernel maintainer for a few years, but handed that all off to a great new team.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#516

Post by cogman10 »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #500
noobermin wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.

[flagged]

Partially, but it takes two to tango.

There are softer ways to work with abrasive attitudes that can ultimately accomplish your goals. A key part of that is knowing which battles are worth fighting. Sometimes, it's better to let a suboptimal solution in to appease an ego.

I think Hector's change is the right one, but I also think with the dma maintainer being unwilling to budge the next move is to hack in a location with less resistance, potentially making more work and churn, but ultimately achieving the goal of rust in Linux.

Two people being abrasive to each other with code involved is a disaster.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#517

Post by MichiB221 »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

I agree that Linus should have made a clear statement.

> Maybe he knows he should, but he fears the shitstorm it will cause.

I always felt that the Rust community is creating a huge social pressure on lots of projects. Rust was more forced into the Linux kernel than being welcomed by Linus and many core maintainers. The pronounced evangelism (not a compliment!) in the Rust community is not only off-putting by being a form of non-violent aggression but creates real problems like wasted energy and resources. This is not generally true, as there're great examples of Rust being adopted from within projects. But also others where Rust was pushed from the outside, like curl.

In my opinion it's a failed experiment. The reason for the failure might not be on the technical side, but on the social side. On the other hand, if Linus wants Rust in the kernel as a way to get new, young, enthusiastic devs into Linux core development, than he should use his role and make a very clear statement as he's done before, like: "Everybody shut up and accept and welcome Rust as first class citizen."

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#518

Post by loeg »

ww520 wrote: post #492
loeg wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Hellwig also Nack'd the patch that added the wrapper to an independent library outside of the core C DMA directory.

Why would he do that? He has no control over an independent library outside of C DMA? I thought he said he's fine with any drivers written in Rust. Just that the maintenance of such including any wrapper cannot fall into C DMA's lap.

> Why would he do that?

It's a great question. I mean, my read of it is he hates the idea of Rust4Linux and is using his position to obstruct.

> He has no control over an independent library outside of C DMA?

Apparently not.

> Just that the maintenance of such including any wrapper cannot fall into C DMA's lap.

The patch he rejected did not add any code to C DMA, nor C DMA's directory (kernel/dma). Just:

  rust/bindings/bindings_helper.h |   1 +
  rust/kernel/dma.rs              | 271 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  rust/kernel/lib.rs              |   1 +
(Nor does any Rust4Linux code add any maintenance burden to C -- C maintainers are allowed to break Rust code at will.)

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#519

Post by bigiain »

ferfumarma wrote: post #411
hajile wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Linus thinks that the social media angle is wrong, he should defuse situations before they become explosive because even if one of the devs didn't bring up the drama, there are dozens of news companies that would have printed up articles the second they found the discussion anyway. Linus should have stepped in long before a maintainer blew their stack and started throwing out ultimatums. Once that happened, Linus…

> Linus only got an opinion once things blew up on social media which proves that social media works which is the exact opposite of what he claims. That is really an apt point. You can't condition people one way, and tell them to do the opposite.

And it's not _that_ long ago since Linus was King of the arrogant and rude flame posts on what's effectively hos own "social media", the linux kernel mailing list.

10 years back, Linus _was_ "that guy". And it worked, extremely effectively, if you measure success by the ability to stamp on someone else's technical contribution by ridiculing them in public instead of making a convincing technical defense of his position in the discussion.

https://github.com/corollari/linusrants

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#520

Post by liamwire »

foota wrote: post #349
ActorNightly wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This doesn't make sense to me, why is a manual language that requires validation better than a language that enforces some safety on its own?

Naive take would be that it adds abstraction that you need to keep checked, in addition to the kernel code itself. Not making a value statement at all on the level of impact that actually has in practice.
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