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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#701

Post by [deleted] »

59nadir wrote: post #608
Aeolun wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true though? I don’t see anyone picking C/C++ over Rust/Go in my immediate environment. That might reflect my environment, but all of the things I’d consider C variations for I’d use Rust for as well…

It's definitely your environment, Rust isn't nearly as popular for actual projects getting done as it is in (for example) StackOverflow's survey. C, C++, Odin and Zig are all languages where whatever C knowledge you have right now can trivially be put to use to do things, immediately, I think it makes perfect sense that unless someone is just really into doing Rust things they'll just take the trivially applicable wa…

[deleted]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#702

Post by [deleted] »

Aeolun wrote: post #554
rdtsc wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. That's just manipulative. Maybe it's just a moment of frustration and they'd take it back eventually, but blackmailing people with social drama is not cool. That's what X and Reddit is for. > Rust folks: Please don't waste your time and mental cycles on drama like this [...] they know they're going to be on the losing side o…

It’s true though? I don’t see anyone picking C/C++ over Rust/Go in my immediate environment. That might reflect my environment, but all of the things I’d consider C variations for I’d use Rust for as well…

[deleted]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#703

Post by tw1984 »

DSMan195276 wrote: post #354
Ygg2 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you put that aside, the problem is you offer Hellwig two solutions and he NACKs them both. H: I don't want to support multilanguage codebase R: We'll have a maintainer verify R4L is behaving properly. H: I solved issues because they were unified. R: Rust will be mirror of whatever C is, and you're free to break it, R4L will maintain it. H: No.

I'll bite and play devils advocate here - both of those are not a solution to his problem. Ultimately he's the maintainer and he gets the emails if X driver is broken, so because of that he doesn't want to rely on another group to maintain the 'Rust half' of his part of the code. It's also a system that works until it doesn't, the biggest rule of the kernel is no breaking userspace - at some point in the future it wo…

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#704

Post by Yeask »

orf wrote: post #589
williamDafoe wrote: post #370

I get this impression that the Rust people think they are a stage where Rust is a viral phenom but it's really not. Nevertheless, they are behaving like its viral and trying to force it down everybody's throats, even though I never heard of some software package or system that was built natively in rust that truly went viral. The other day I tried to install a python package and - big surprise - it REQUIRED me to ins…

Was this comment written by an 80 year old who’s watched a Fox News segment on Rust? It definitely reads like that. wsl ‘DOES’ have a rust toolchain, nobody is saying rust is going viral (what on earth…), you tried to install the python packages’ sdist rather than the wheel. Get it together.

Not wanting a huge dependency tree is something understandable by any seasoned developer.

Was your comment wrote by a junior javascript developer?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#705

Post by tw1984 »

dralley wrote: post #543
DSMan195276 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite and play devils advocate here - both of those are not a solution to his problem. Ultimately he's the maintainer and he gets the emails if X driver is broken, so because of that he doesn't want to rely on another group to maintain the 'Rust half' of his part of the code. It's also a system that works until it doesn't, the biggest rule of the kernel is no breaking userspace - at some point in the future it wo…

That is not a problem. Christoph does not have the right to gatekeep who can use DMA. If he tried to veto an Nvidia graphics driver from using DMA using the excuse that "it might create more work for me", everyone would rightfully tell him to f-off, because that's not his call.

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#706

Post by adamors »

bigiain wrote: post #523
josephg wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just ("just") sounds like he's out of alignment with the kernel development process. That shouldn't be too surprising - I mean, its an old project with a whole lot of technical baggage. Projects tend to slow down over time. And that is legitimately really frustrating when you want to shake things up or push for change. I would be rubbish as a linux kernel developer. I have the wrong temperament for it. There's a r…

> some tech companies interview for both technical skill and culture fit. Sounds like he's got the technical chops, but he's not a good fit for linux. You're right. To fit with historical "linux culture" he needs to be much more aggressive and rude. He needed to lead with something more inline with linux project leadership's examples, perhaps something like: Christoph " ... should be retroactively aborted. Who the f*…

Yeah, reading these back in 2025 it's amazing Linux got as far as it did with Linus being like this for a long time.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#707

Post by AnonymousPlanet »

cycomanic wrote: post #357
arp242 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where? Because "keep the wrappers in your code" and "do that in your driver so that you have to do it instead of spreading this" doesn't sound like that.

He said explicitely: >Every additional bit that another language creeps in drastically reduces the maintainability of the kernel as an integrated project. The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language completely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this. I think that clearly means he is out to sabotage…

So there's actually a reasoning behind this and not just personal preference or someone being stubborn. And as someone who has maintained large old code bases I must say the reasoning sounds pretty convincing.

If any of

> Every additional bit that another language creeps in drastically reduces the maintainability of the kernel as an integrated project. The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language completely breaks this.

is correct, he is actually fighting against sabotage.

edit for readability

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#708

Post by baranul »

59nadir wrote: post #608
Aeolun wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true though? I don’t see anyone picking C/C++ over Rust/Go in my immediate environment. That might reflect my environment, but all of the things I’d consider C variations for I’d use Rust for as well…

It's definitely your environment, Rust isn't nearly as popular for actual projects getting done as it is in (for example) StackOverflow's survey. C, C++, Odin and Zig are all languages where whatever C knowledge you have right now can trivially be put to use to do things, immediately, I think it makes perfect sense that unless someone is just really into doing Rust things they'll just take the trivially applicable wa…

There are a lot of C programmers who do not like or are not fond of Zig or Odin. For highly proficient C and C++ programmers, many consider them not worth their time. Not even counting, that both Zig and Odin are in beta. It's an investment to become as proficient in the other language.

An example is Muratori from handmade hero, who publicly stated he dislikes Zig and pretty much sees it as a confused mess[1]. He thinks Odin is kind of OK, because it has metaprogramming (which other languages do too), but is way below Jai. Between Jai and Odin, he thought Jai was the one with potential and could get him to switch/use. Odin's slight popularity, as a kind of Jai-lite, is often attributed to Jai being a closed beta. But, it appears that might change soon (Jai going public or opening up beta use more), along with an upcoming book on Jai.

Programming languages like Go and V (Vlang), have more of a use case for new programmers and general-purpose, because they are easier to learn and use. That was the point of their creation.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVVhwALd0o4 (Full Casey Muratori: Language Perf and Picking A Lang Stream)

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#709

Post by eqvinox »

He also got his treehouse.systems Mastodon account "suspended by a moderator". Not sure if the treehouse people have said anything more specfic, but I am entirely unsurprised given how he behaved on there.

It's a quite clear case of "what you accuse others of is what you yourself resort to". He was calling out others for unreasonableness, flaming and sabotage — and did exactly that himself.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#710

Post by baranul »

tinco wrote: post #641
throwaway2037 wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If not Rust, what does he prefer? Zig?

Yeah, mostly Golang and Zig I think.

He is apparently mostly a Golang guy, and has stated he would play around/experiment with Zig. However, this was against the advice of Muratori (who does not like Zig), and suggested Jai (preferred choice) or Odin.
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