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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#541
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To interpret it differently requires bending the mind." Stange, I think interpreting it your way requires bending the mind. Hellwig clearly used it to describe what he sees at the ill effects of multiple languages in the kernel. It was not used to describe either Rust the language or this specifically this particular submission.

I agree with Vegenoid that using diseases for labeling poorly written code is at the very least highly unprofessional. This practice not only diminishes the seriousness of illnesses like cancer when used so casually, but it also cannot provide helpful constructive feedback. Instead of providing helpful advice like outlining the current situation and suggesting specific improvements (action A, task B, and goal C) to r…

There is no specific improvement if the problem is fundamental. There is no "better/right" way to spread a cancer. (I'm not saying it is, just that that is the argument, and in that context, there is no such thing as a common goal to reach some better way. Everyone does not actually have to agree that all goals are valid and should be reached.)

The only helpful advice, which they did give, is don't even start doing this because it's fundamentally wrong.

The linux kernel is like a house where everyone is a vegan. Marcan believes that incorporating some meat in the diet is important, and better that being a vegan. He may even be right. But so what? He makes his pitch, the family says that's nice but no thanks. He then demands that they eat this chicken because he wants to live in the house and wants to eat chicken while living in the vegan house?

I don't see how he has any right to what he wants, and I don't see an existing kernel devs refusal to cooperate, or even entertain cooperating, as automatically wrong or unreasonable.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#542

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

Besides the current drama, I'm glad someone of his stature agrees with and can call out the horrible processes and tooling involved in the kernel. Using email and a pile of hacks to mess around with patches just sounds nuts and makes it so much harder to understand or contribute. I don't think decentralized necessitates such a terrible workflow - you can run a local website with a distributed DB, distributed git forg…

Every time I have to interact with mailing list based projects I feel like I must be missing some secret set of tools and workflows to make it easier.

Then I talk to the old timers and they act like I just need to get used to it.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#543
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you put that aside, the problem is you offer Hellwig two solutions and he NACKs them both. H: I don't want to support multilanguage codebase R: We'll have a maintainer verify R4L is behaving properly. H: I solved issues because they were unified. R: Rust will be mirror of whatever C is, and you're free to break it, R4L will maintain it. H: No.

I'll bite and play devils advocate here - both of those are not a solution to his problem. Ultimately he's the maintainer and he gets the emails if X driver is broken, so because of that he doesn't want to rely on another group to maintain the 'Rust half' of his part of the code. It's also a system that works until it doesn't, the biggest rule of the kernel is no breaking userspace - at some point in the future it wo…

That is not a problem. Christoph does not have the right to gatekeep who can use DMA. If he tried to veto an Nvidia graphics driver from using DMA using the excuse that "it might create more work for me", everyone would rightfully tell him to f-off, because that's not his call.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#544
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, calling the well-intentioned hard work of others "cancer" is undeniably hyperbolic and dismissive. It is clear that Hellwig used it in this way. To interpret it differently requires bending the mind. Most people would also consider it rude, but I'll grant that rudeness is more subjective. There is an argument that being hyperbolic, dismissive, and maybe a bit rude isn't as bad as some people make it ou…

"To interpret it differently requires bending the mind." Stange, I think interpreting it your way requires bending the mind. Hellwig clearly used it to describe what he sees at the ill effects of multiple languages in the kernel. It was not used to describe either Rust the language or this specifically this particular submission.

> And I also do not want another maintainer. If you want to make Linux impossible to maintain due to a cross-language codebase do that in your driver so that you have to do it instead of spreading this cancer to core subsystems. (where this cancer explicitly is a cross-language codebase and not rust itself, just to escape the flameware brigade).

It was used to describe the Rust for Linux project, as well as any other potential efforts to bring other languages into the kernel, of which there are none. It is clear why someone working on the Rust for Linux project would feel that "this cancer" refers to the project that they are working on.

I'm not trying to pull out pitchforks, I don't want anyone to burn. I just want people to collaborate effectively and be happy, and I think it is empirically clear that calling something that grows/spreads and that you think is bad "cancer" is not useful, and only inflames things. It is not an illuminating metaphor.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#546
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's version 4. Here's version 2, which looks like the first patch submission: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-security-module/20230204050954...

7000 is not a lot better.

One of the first habits I learned at BigCo was to have a sense of the DAG in any work over 400 lines, so I could make patches arbitrarily large or small. Because whichever I chose, someone would complain eventually

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#547
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…

I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers,…

The short of his rant is that he wants a "Code Of Standards for maintainers" in addition to a CoC, in order to witch hunt people he feels "gets in the way."

Yikes, this is EXACTLY what Linus was talking about except an order of magnitude worse!

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#548
post #43

Quoting from this thread https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z6OzgBYZNJPr_ZD1@phen... > Simona Vetter: (addressing Hector) ...Now I'm left with the unlikely explanation that you just like thundering in as the cavalry, fashionably late, maximally destructive, because it entertains the masses on fedi or reddit or wherever. I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here, I really don't get it, but I am for sure fe…

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#549
post #3

Martin has worked hard on Asahi, but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes. I'd give this to Linus.

> Martin has worked hard on Asahi, but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes. Aren't these diametrically opposed? Virtue signaling is loudly claiming to have some virtue in the absence of that virtue. Hector has receipts, in the form of commits, as proof. Virtue signaling would be me appearing on the mailing list and spouting my beliefs.

There's more than one flavor of virtue.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. Efficiently collaborating on large distributed open source projects like Linux is as much social act…

> just keep being open minded about it and let the chips fall where they may. It's a failure of leadership to not intervene when discord threatens the group. He should weigh in, or make sure that someone else who has mutual trust weighs in. In youth sports, something similar happens when referees fail to call fouls on rough play. Players naturally test the limits and then others recognize the lack of protection and r…

> In youth sports, something similar happens when referees fail to call fouls on rough play.

This is actually not limited to youth sports, you can even see it happen with professional athletes.

It's a very common human reaction when participants feel like the rules aren't getting enforced. For all ages. Which only reinforces your point.

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