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NIH slashes overhead payments for research

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Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that argument falls flat. We're talking about schools with multi-billion dollar endowments, new sports stadiums, branded new facilities, fat tuition fees from international students and a ton of pet projects by the university. But no, the NIH needs to "subsidize" general fund through NIH grants? > The university is free to spend them as it sees fit, rather than according to what some big important outsider say…

I believe the median endowment of an R1 university is around $1 billion. That corresponds to $30 million to $40 million of sustained income a year. Enough to fund a single reasonably large academic department, or about as much as grant overheads. Except that universities usually can't use their endowments as they see fit. Big donors often prefer funding fancy buildings and other singular things over daily operations.…

What struck me most about your response is what you hear from all the stakeholders when it comes to reforming the healthcare system in the US - you talk to each individual stakeholder and they'll give you a list of reasons why they aren't the problem and how they couldn't possibly get by on less money.

Doctors talk about how their salaries, the highest in the world, couldn't possibly be lower and blame insurance and the hospitals. Hospitals tell stories about all the uncompensated care they provide, how they can't tell doctors how to practice and how patients would be dying on the streets if they got $1 less and the problem really lies with doctors and insurance. Insurance companies talk about how hospital spending is out of control and most of the money is paid out in claims and how doctors fees have exploded.

Etc, etc, etc.

The truth is that the cost of university has skyrocketed over the past few decades. University budgets have grown well beyond inflation for decades. The administrative class has exploded in terms of head count and campuses have gotten more and more luxurious (try comparing them with one in Europe or Canada!).

In the end if universities couldn't possible move money around to cover what amounts to a few percentage of their total budgets, then I don't know what to say. Maybe the slate needs to be wiped clean and we start again with a system that makes more sense in terms of where the dollars come from and go.

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research overhead doesn't pay for that stuff. It pays for research-relevant infrastructure and staff. If a PI buys equipment, it's a waste to spend their own very expensive time to ensure purchase-tracking compliance. So you hire an inventory person. But it doesn't make sense to have one inventory person per research group. So you hire one to serve multiple projects and ensure their continued employment by averaging…

“Purchase compliance” with what? Arbitrary policies set by… university admin? Full disclosure I’ve dealt with this all first hand. The vast majority of universities contribute next to nothing to research programs except the space, utilities, and IT. And those costs do not need to be a % of incoming grant money. And the vast majority do just take that cut and use it as slush fund general revenue.

You are right that it does not "need to be a %" - it could be a la carte, for example.

Our physics group had access to the shared LN2 tank. It was no fee, so if you needed a few liters you could just grab it. That could be replaced with a debit system which goes directly to the account. (Hmm, and who decides how much to charge?)

We got hazmat training, and the environmental safety officer was paid by the university through overhead. That could instead be billed directly to the grant. (Hmm, and who decides how much to charge, and how much training is needed?)

When we installed a projector on the ceiling we were able to get building services to install the mount through the air plenum. That service could instead be billed directly against the grant. (Hmm, and who decides how much to charge?)

We could book time in the sound studio to record voice-overs for one of our projects. That was free, but could be billed directly against the grant. (Hmm, and who decides how much to charge?)

Some relevant materials, believe it or not, are not yet digitized, but are available in the library stacks. I could just walk there and read it, because library support was part of the overhead, but you're right - it doesn't need to be that way. The library could charge per entry and book. (Hmm, and who decides how much to charge?)

I'm sure other departments have their own needs, like maintaining the herds for the ag school, or the instruments for the music department.

I don't know how you could have dealt with this all first hand and not see just how much more the university provides than "space, utilities, and IT."

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#53

> Many who advocate for cutting NIH’s indirect cost rate have long argued that universities are willing to accept lower rates from philanthropic foundations. Today’s NIH notice, for example, notes the Gates Foundation limits indirect costs to 10%, while the Packard Foundation sets the ceiling at 15%. But such reasoning is based on “perverse logic,” Corey says, because foundations use their funds to increase the produ…

They could simply stop hiring more admin and building offices for them to work in at a rate that far exceeds student population growth or hiring of professors.

I had some administrative experience at a peripheral university and a "good" project was one generating big administrative costs - and bonuses for administrators.

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the median endowment of an R1 university is around $1 billion. That corresponds to $30 million to $40 million of sustained income a year. Enough to fund a single reasonably large academic department, or about as much as grant overheads. Except that universities usually can't use their endowments as they see fit. Big donors often prefer funding fancy buildings and other singular things over daily operations.…

What struck me most about your response is what you hear from all the stakeholders when it comes to reforming the healthcare system in the US - you talk to each individual stakeholder and they'll give you a list of reasons why they aren't the problem and how they couldn't possibly get by on less money. Doctors talk about how their salaries, the highest in the world, couldn't possibly be lower and blame insurance and…

I haven't seen any luxurious campuses in the US, though I don't have much experience with student housing and services. Some departments are baseline modern office buildings, while others remind me more of Latin America than Europe. And some would be eerily similar to the USSR, if you painted them light blue.

Large part of the cost explosion is simply Baumol effect. In particular, universities employ many professionals, and professional salaries have grown ridiculously high in the US. Median full time income is something like $60k, which means that anything above $120k should be high income by the usual definition. But if you ask a professional, $120k is not a particularly good salary.

Another large part is the growth of mandatory spending. Roughly speaking, many administrators are mandatory, because they exist for external reasons. Universities cannot cut them, unless the external environment changes. The more regulations and expectations there are, the more administrators universities require.

Then there is the issue that American students expect to be taught, which makes education more expensive. I studied in a European university, where the curriculum was structured around exams. Classes were offered when the resources allowed it, but you were expected to pass the exams regardless. Very convenient if you are sufficiently independent. And less so if you are not.

The public research university I'm at recently had something like 15% deficit in core funding. Mostly due to tuition fees and state funding lagging behind inflation. There is simply no money to move around.

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#55
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What struck me most about your response is what you hear from all the stakeholders when it comes to reforming the healthcare system in the US - you talk to each individual stakeholder and they'll give you a list of reasons why they aren't the problem and how they couldn't possibly get by on less money. Doctors talk about how their salaries, the highest in the world, couldn't possibly be lower and blame insurance and…

I haven't seen any luxurious campuses in the US, though I don't have much experience with student housing and services. Some departments are baseline modern office buildings, while others remind me more of Latin America than Europe. And some would be eerily similar to the USSR, if you painted them light blue. Large part of the cost explosion is simply Baumol effect. In particular, universities employ many professiona…

> Another large part is the growth of mandatory spending. Roughly speaking, many administrators are mandatory, because they exist for external reasons. Universities cannot cut them, unless the external environment changes. The more regulations and expectations there are, the more administrators universities require.

Can you shed more light on that? I haven't heard that, but would be interested to hear what admin is required.

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen any luxurious campuses in the US, though I don't have much experience with student housing and services. Some departments are baseline modern office buildings, while others remind me more of Latin America than Europe. And some would be eerily similar to the USSR, if you painted them light blue. Large part of the cost explosion is simply Baumol effect. In particular, universities employ many professiona…

> Another large part is the growth of mandatory spending. Roughly speaking, many administrators are mandatory, because they exist for external reasons. Universities cannot cut them, unless the external environment changes. The more regulations and expectations there are, the more administrators universities require. Can you shed more light on that? I haven't heard that, but would be interested to hear what admin is r…

It's death by a million regulations.

In some countries, a researcher can write a grant on their own, with minimal support from the university. Not in the US. If you are not a full-time administrator, it's effectively impossible to know what is required from the application. A department-level administrator will often work with the PI to produce an endless pile of documents. And then a higher-tier administrator has to double-check everything, because the department-level administrator is likely to miss some details.

Universities hire a lot of foreign employees. Because the US immigration system is complex, there are usually people helping new hires deal with it. And they only deal with immigration bureaucracy – they rarely have time to help with more practical issues, such as how to open a bank account.

Maybe you are attending a conference. It's often cheaper to pay a membership fee in a professional organization + discounted registration fee than the full registration fee. But you can't pay membership fees from federal grants, so administrators have to pay those from another funding source.

You came back from the conference with a bunch of restaurant receipts in random foreign languages. Now the administrators need to check and double-check that they are not reimbursing any alcohol from federal grants.

Or maybe you are attending two conferences in a row in Europe, with a few days between them. Now you need to provide evidence that it's cheaper to stay in Europe instead of flying back to the US for the weekend. And you also need to justify the use of a European airline for flying between two European cities.

Pretty much everything a university does is in a similar regulatory hell.

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#57

> Many who advocate for cutting NIH’s indirect cost rate have long argued that universities are willing to accept lower rates from philanthropic foundations. Today’s NIH notice, for example, notes the Gates Foundation limits indirect costs to 10%, while the Packard Foundation sets the ceiling at 15%. But such reasoning is based on “perverse logic,” Corey says, because foundations use their funds to increase the produ…

Additionally, the base of the indirect calculation differs between grantors. NIH is MTDC (Modified Total Direct Costs) on top; Gates is TDC (Total Direct Costs) with their own schedule of allowable indirect costs. You have to do a line by line comparison to really evaluate the difference.

I was first surprised that NIH put indirects on top and wondered if they were done NSF style if that would help control costs more.

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key issue is we're not getting audits, we're only getting indiscriminate cuts . I understand the concerns around using funds effectively, and I agree there's a lot of waste out there, but some of that is just required in the research space to learn. If we knew what to fund to do something, it's no longer research, it's engineering. Overhaul the grant system to ensure that there's additional scrutiny in getting fu…

They’re not “burning it all down”, they’re cutting indirect expenses from 30%+ to 15% — and administrators who were grifting are whining because their slush funds got cut.

Even in this narrow context, the cuts are indiscriminate in their domain. Moreover, they are rolled out aggressively, carelessly, and abruptly -- a lot of "masculine energy." Science takes years and requires long-term planning. This move just pulls the carpet out; there absolutely is no need for this degree of urgency other than political gain.

These organizations can and will adapt. But as I said in my OP, the real, lasting damage is in prestige. In the meantime, scientists all over the world thinking about working in the US will think twice. Young adults thinking about becoming research physicians and doing biomedical research will think twice. Researchers making peanuts working at universities doing this research will go work in pharma on more lucrative projects.

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funding sources themselves, especially with capital expenditures for purchases $10K or higher. They want to make sure PIs are spending money on actual program equipment that's being used, and not just turning around and selling it on Ebay to line their pockets. I've dealt with this first hand because I'm a PI myself. I hate having to waste my valuable time dealing with the inventory person every couple months, but we…

That’s interesting. In Canada the issue is that funding sources don’t care if you’re somewhat irresponsible with capital expenditures (though not to the point of personal enrichment), but are loathe to give you any money for personnel.

[deleted]

Re: NIH slashes overhead payments for research

#60
post #41

One of the main issues with overhead on grants is that it has nothing to do with overhead on the research itself. It’s instead a tax that a university applies to money that researchers bring in, that they use as general revenue to fund, for lack of a better term, bullshit including hiring more admin instead of professors. A $8M grant doesn’t cost a university any more than a $1M grant for university admin in terms of…

You don't seem to have any experience with the subject. The "overhead" in question is, for example, the person who keeps clean glassware in inventory for chemistry, or the veterinarian for animal subjects, or the ethics board.

And in the case of massive projects where service providers do the wet work, your lab primarily deals with data analysis, or you don’t even do your research with university space/equipment, they still get 30-60% just because.

This isn’t some conspiracy theory. Look at how much grant money a given university brings in annually and ask yourself if 30-60% of that number is being spent on overhead related to research. It’s not.

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