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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#461

Post by ww520 »

wbl wrote: post #259
arp242 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

The DMA infrastructure is core to drivers. Saying no to having a wrapper to use it in rust means every rust driver needs to reimplement it, which creates more work and issues.

Just curious. Why can't the wrapper be an independent library outside of the DMA infrastructure? It can still be used by all rust drivers.

I think Hellwig is against moving the wrapper into the DMA project that he's forced to maintain it.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#462

Post by tomnipotent »

cycomanic wrote: post #367
dralley wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor You're reading way too far into this. Linus has been publicly positive about the R4L project plenty of times.

The problem is, that he let's a maintainer say he is going to fight any Rust code getting into any "core" (whatever he considers core) part of the kernel, even if it's just a wrapper to make driver code more maintainable. I would say, that's a strategy decision that should not be up to any subsystem maintainer, that's a decision that should be up to Linus, by not intervening he essentially endorses that getting rust…

> that's a strategy decision that should not be up to any subsystem maintainer

So people are not allowed to hold positions and argue for them in public, or take actions that align with that position?

> I don't believe that was what the rust guys thought they'd be signing up for

It's not like there wasn't any existing precedence with C++, and many of the arguments I've read seem consistent with that history.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#463

Post by apatheticonion »

sgerenser wrote: post #458
apatheticonion wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Linux have the ability to load drivers dynamically (like Windows)? Is there a reason why developers don't develop drivers outside of the kernel and have users simply install them post-install?

It can, but Linux does not have a stable driver ABI. Whoever wrote the out-of-tree drivers would have to constantly update them whenever there was a breaking change to the kernel, which I understand is relatively common.

That's interesting. Dumb question but why doesn't Linux aim for a stable driver ABI? Does it impede delivery speed?

I think nvidia uses out-of-tree drivers that are dynamically loaded - does that mean that nvidia drivers are tied to specific kernel versions?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#464

Post by saghm »

AndyKelley wrote: post #422

I've been saying this for years now: the rust4linux folks are putting so much effort into trying to upstream their work, seems like they should instead put that effort into maintaining a fork. Arguably it would be less hours spent porting than arguing with humans. Certainly more pleasant! Then one of two things will happen: * Rust will prove its worth and their fork will be the better operating system. Distros will s…

Even if they made a fork and made it super great from a technical perspective, it still would face an uphill battle from the perspective of adoption. The amount of work to get people to switch over would be enormous, and the fact that there's at least some willingness on the part of Linux to adopt Rust in places makes me skeptical that there really would be less work to try to compete. I'd be thrilled if you're right though!

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#465

Post by rednafi »

There will be a similar drama when Zig reaches 1.0. There will be a bunch of Ziggers trying to get it into the kernal. The Rust fad is already slowing down. Maybe it's a good idea to wait 10-15 years before trying to rewrite the universe in a "memory safe" language and pushing that upstream.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#466

Post by sc68cal »

It's cowardly and easy for me to say now after the fact, but I saw the original Mastodon post because I follow Hector Martin. I didn't think that it was going to make the situation any better but I didn't have the energy to even fire off a one-off comment saying so.

I absolutely get emotional about my work. I have absolutely sabotaged myself by not having the presence of mind to step back and take a deep breath. I had a moment of clarity reading Hector's post on Mastodon, and I'm sad that my suspicion that this was going to just make things worse was correct

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#467

Post by DrillShopper »

apatheticonion wrote: post #463
sgerenser wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can, but Linux does not have a stable driver ABI. Whoever wrote the out-of-tree drivers would have to constantly update them whenever there was a breaking change to the kernel, which I understand is relatively common.

That's interesting. Dumb question but why doesn't Linux aim for a stable driver ABI? Does it impede delivery speed? I think nvidia uses out-of-tree drivers that are dynamically loaded - does that mean that nvidia drivers are tied to specific kernel versions?

The rationale for not having a stable driver ABI is here: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/process/stable-api-...

RE: nvidia - yes

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#468

Post by stock_toaster »

ndiddy wrote: post #49
nialv7 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like @marcan deleted his existence on mastodon? Does anyone have a copy of what he said on there?

The tweet he got called out for on the thread was "Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect. Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down."

> Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down

If true, then it sounds like there are some “missing stairs”[1] (the professionally difficult kind, hopefully not the other kind) in Kernel development.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#469

Post by artyom »

jmull wrote: post #248
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

The drama, though, is due to personalities. A directive from Linus on the technical roadmap isn't going to solve anything. It could declare someone the "winner" in this particular thread or this particular issue, but lets the personality issue fester. It's probably best for Linux to work through its technical issues in boring email threads which never get any attention on social media. And its organizational issues a…

It's definitely a ballpark estimate, but "boring email threads" are 99% of LKML.

There's an average of 1000 messages per day, we get news of a drama-fueled thread like, three times on a bad year?

My ballpark estimate is probably low.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#470

Post by tomnipotent »

dralley wrote: post #161
ChocolateGod wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An Intel employee in a reply makes a extremely good point that I think everyone these days needs to follow > And if you're wondering why you didn't realize this: It's impossible to change people by telling them they're wrong. What does tend to work is explaining different perspectives, so that they can figure it out themselves. And sometimes that's just way too subtle to ever register.

Said Intel employee needs to follow their own advice. https://chaos.social/@sima/113961285815637787 > when you're that harmful with your calling out, eventually I'm going to be fed up, and you get a live round shot across your bow and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner: fuck off >or as Dave put it "Being toxic on the…

This seems like a perfectly reasonable response given Hector's prior comments. Pushing someones buttons until they explode and then pointing out they exploded isn't the indictment people think it is.
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