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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#301

Post by ratorx »

mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

Having read through the email thread, I think both vocal people are basically in the wrong here. There is a way to constructively disagree and the DMA maintainer did not do that. The Rust maintainer should not have brigaded using social media.

The “in hindsight” version of how this should have gone without ego:

* Patch adds Rust bindings to C API

* Maintainer has concerns about increased maintenance cost and clarifies policy about C changes and Rust abstraction if unsure.

* Since R4L is approved, the binding is allowed to exist in a form that doesn’t inhibit changes to C API. C API is allowed to break Rust (I assume, otherwise the entire effort is moot).

* Any concerns about tooling etc which DON’T exhibit this property (and can demonstrably show that merging this Rust code will make C code harder to change) are brought up.

* These are resolved as a tooling issue before the change is merged (I don’t think there are any in this case).

All the discussion about multi-language projects etc is for the project as a whole to decide, which happened when R4L was approved and the breakage policy was decided (might need to be properly formalised).

If the maintainer (or anyone) is unreasonable, then the only approach is to have someone with more authority weigh in and make the decision to bypass their objections or sustain them (which is sort of the direction this was going before the diatribes).

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#302

Post by arp242 »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #269
arp242 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware. Doesn't mean it's not an option, or even a bad idea. Or maybe there is a third option; I don't know. By the way: I don't agree with Hellwig, insofar I can judge things, I'm just saying his opinion is valid, and that "Linus agreed on Rust, so therefore we can merge this patch" is not really a valid argument.

It's just really, really dumb to both a) have rust drivers in the kernel and b) not merge this patch. It's just obviously stupid. If you start with the assumption of a), there are no valid technical challenges to merging it. It's just better for everyone. Before Hellwig put his foot down as "not merging because rust sucks", he made a series of technical arguments against the patch, which were all transparently bullsh…

> Before Hellwig put his foot down as "not merging because rust sucks"

He didn't say this at all. He explicitly and repeatedly said he has no problems with Rust as a language.

And you can't just assert "there are no valid technical reasons". Just because you don't agree with the objections, or even think they're dumb, doesn't mean you can just dismiss them and start ascribing bad faith motives.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#303

Post by [deleted] »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #289
sevg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that he had nothing to apologise for, and that abusive behavior is an acceptable part of strong leadership. It’s sad that this even needs to be called out.

Can you explain in simple terms why a person cannot reply abusively (whatever that means) if he so desires? You're not obliged to interact with him, it's a free choice to join or to quit the lkml.

[deleted]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#304

Post by ActorNightly »

19h wrote: post #165

The frustration seems justified. Spending significant time adapting core kernel code or developing a safe Rust abstraction for DMA, only to be summarily shut down by a single gatekeeper who cites "not wanting multiple languages" is demotivating. It's especially incongruent given that others have championed Rust in the kernel, and Linux has begun hosting Rust modules. If the project leadership — i.e. Linus — truly wan…

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#305

Post by sho_hn »

winocm wrote: post #274
starspangled wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in Linux is "here to stay", it always has to demonstrate its worth, and what it's worth is depends enirely on the technology and its developers, not Linus.

DEC Alpha support is somehow still in the mainline Linux kernel...

Slowly getting removed: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/e8612e21-4ea4-4e6f-8c73-9fbee11...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#306

Post by dylan604 »

tjohns wrote: post #237
pipes wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Some of Linus's past messages came across as needlessly aggressive and insulting. There really was no practical reason for that and just served to alienate contributors, and it came across as unprofessional. You can be a strong, opinionated leader and still be kind (or at least neutral) to the people you're working with. A good leader is someone who can deliver hard messages while still keeping your team inspired. It…

> A good leader is someone who can deliver hard messages while still keeping your team inspired.

Do you have examples of this? The only "good" leaders that are strong and opinionated I can think of always comes across as leans towards being an asshole.

> Same message, but completely different impact on your team.

Let's change it from "you're a fucking idiot" to "this code is fucking trash". It's not insulting to the specific person, but it definitely gets the point across that the code is no good and much less ambiguous to "it's not up to standards".

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#307

Post by sangnoir »

finnthehuman wrote: post #275
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides the current drama, I'm glad someone of his stature agrees with and can call out the horrible processes and tooling involved in the kernel. Using email and a pile of hacks to mess around with patches just sounds nuts and makes it so much harder to understand or contribute. I don't think decentralized necessitates such a terrible workflow - you can run a local website with a distributed DB, distributed git forg…

I always thought it was a pretty blatant "vibe check" to filter out people who are so uncomfortable with software that they can't customize their environment to create an email workflow that works for them.

That sounds about right - the medium is the message. If you can't stand the clunky-but-working, decades-old, patch process, you probably won't stand the clunky-but-working decades-old code.

I'm grateful the kernel still supports MIPS, which means an old appliance of mine still works perfectly fine and is upgradable. I would be cery sad if someone were to rip-out support of an old MIPS arch, just because it's old and unwieldy

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#308

Post by DrillShopper »

trashface wrote: post #111
tptacek wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do, but they have a stated goal of maximizing contribution. Linux does not, right? I'm asking.

"Maximum number", perhaps not, but Greg KH did at one point want new contributors: https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2ny1lz/im_greg_kroah... Q: What would make you even more happy with Linux? GregKH: If you contribute to it.

The kernel dev process is more pathological than what I deal with at $DAYJOB.

Why the hell would I wish that upon myself?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#309

Post by bsimpson »

nubinetwork wrote: post #15
mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

While I never submitted a patch personally, I had once conferred with some of the input devs to add a trackpad to the synaptics driver... they were queueing up an update to add other trackpads, and they said they would add mine... 5 years later, it's still not there. It was just a one-liner, and I'm not really sure why it never got added... On the other hand, I once ran into an issue with uboot where a bad update kno…

FWIW, I have submitted a couple small patches to get the display and gamepad for my Lenovo Legion Go recognized correctly - probably similar levels of complexity to your change. One was to input and one was to display quirks.

They did take months to finally land, and the whole process of getting my corp email address to be compatible with their email-based PR system was way more of a faff than it had any right to be, but they did land. You can install mainline Linux on a Legion Go now and the display and controller will behave as expected, out-of-the-box.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#310

Post by hulitu »

artyom wrote: post #238
sevg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that he had nothing to apologise for, and that abusive behavior is an acceptable part of strong leadership. It’s sad that this even needs to be called out.

Except you have no authority to call that out, and we're not forced by law to agree with you. In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct. Unfortunately, there seems to exist people (like me) that would prefer such individuals instead of nice empty words just in case someone gets offended.

> In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct.

The way he spoke with Alan Cox was "not apropiate".

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