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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#151

Post by paholg »

CopperWing wrote: post #119
jeroenhd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's rather silly to have some subsystem maintainers do everything in their power to sabotage the improvement projects by subsystem and even high level maintainers in the kernel. It was a fine position to take back when introduction of Rust into the kernel was still very much a discussion point. However, the discussion is over, Rust has been accepted into the kernel. This entire struggle has been kernel devel…

The DMA subsystem maintainer has some reasons: at this time you can disable all rust drivers when building the Linux kernel but you cannot disable rust wrappers to C language APIs. So if you need to change for example the DMA APIs, you also need to fix the rust wrapper before submitting the C patches otherwise you cannot even build a C only kernel.

I don't think that's true. I have seen R4L folks reiterate time and again that C changes are allowed to break Rust code, and they will be the ones to fix it.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#152

Post by rc00 »

zoogeny wrote: post #133
ziddoap wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Starting to think it's not just a coincidence. Is your theory that rust makes people dramatic? Or that dramatic people like rust? What other options are there, if not coincidence?

I would argue the second. I think it is a human trait to like to win arguments. In some card games, there is a thing called a trump card [1]. The trump card has this special ability to beat all other cards. Rust has a kind of trump card: memory safety. If you get in an argument about code it is often possible to maneuver the argument in the direction of memory safety at which point the Rust advocate gets to default w…

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#153

Post by dralley »

zoogeny wrote: post #136
dralley wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the point is nonsense. Rust is a consumer of the APIs just like every other driver / subsystem is. Any change to the C APIs would likely require collaboration with those other maintainers no different than Rust. And CH would be immediately shut down if he tried to roadblock some random driver that needs DMA purely because he doesn't want the existence of that driver to "increase his workload".

I think you are using inflammatory language by calling the point nonsense. As an outside observer, literally no skin in this game, I can see his point. If his C code changes breaks other C code then he is at an advantage compared to if his C code breaks a Rust binding or Rust drivers. The degree to which this adds to his burden of maintenance is up to him to decide.

The kernel is extremely complex. He very likely still needs to work with other maintainers if his code breaks their code. In this case he has LESS work to do, because the R4L developers own all fixes to Rust code, and he is free to break them, and they have to clean it up themselves.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#154

Post by plagiarist »

pjmlp wrote: post #97
markus_zhang wrote: post #81

I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Sure it's going to take years, but at least they don't have to suffer the mental outrages from time to time and can do whatever they want? I mean I'd do it if that's what I want. P.S I don't have skin and skill for the kernel game. I'm just a curious bystander.

They have, https://www.redox-os.org/ https://tockos.org/ Also note that many of Rust 4 Linux contributors are Microsoft and Google employees that would like to upstream their changes, they already have plenty Rust on their own Linux derived systems.

Redox looks great. Device drivers should be in userspace, though I think that's far easier said than done with everything being on shared busses. A kernel cannot (safely) just simply check permissions for accessing a device and route the messages.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#155

Post by serial_dev »

tptacek wrote: post #56
mauricioc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU... Edit: For further context for Linus's reply, there's http://web.archive.org/web/20250206022420/https://social.tre...

Yikes, re that fedi thread.

This one bit looks exactly right, though:

> As for how to move forward, (...) Either Linus takes the pull, and whatever Christoph says is irrelevant, or he doesn't, and R4L dies. Everything else is a waste of everyone's time and energy.

It does look like maintainers should have a "disagree and commit" mentality at some point, whatever decision they end up making.

I thought Rust in Linux was evaluated, discussed and agreed upon years ago. The fact that there are people still trying to sabotage it shows that they don't follow the "disagree and commit" principle.

They are more like "disagree and make the others lives a living hell until they bend to my will".

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#156

Post by Zollerboy1 »

CopperWing wrote: post #119
jeroenhd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's rather silly to have some subsystem maintainers do everything in their power to sabotage the improvement projects by subsystem and even high level maintainers in the kernel. It was a fine position to take back when introduction of Rust into the kernel was still very much a discussion point. However, the discussion is over, Rust has been accepted into the kernel. This entire struggle has been kernel devel…

The DMA subsystem maintainer has some reasons: at this time you can disable all rust drivers when building the Linux kernel but you cannot disable rust wrappers to C language APIs. So if you need to change for example the DMA APIs, you also need to fix the rust wrapper before submitting the C patches otherwise you cannot even build a C only kernel.

A C only kernel build without CONFIG_RUST will not build a single line of Rust code nor will it touch anything in the rust subdirectory. If you don’t want to deal with rust, you don’t have to at all.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#157

Post by Eval-Apply »

ziddoap wrote: post #66
bakugo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Starting to think it's not just a coincidence. Is your theory that rust makes people dramatic? Or that dramatic people like rust? What other options are there, if not coincidence?

>Is your theory that rust makes people dramatic? Or that dramatic people like rust? What other options are there, if not coincidence?

There is a cognitive bias called "loyalty to the brand", in which it says that people prefer the things they have because they rationalize their choices to protect their sense of ego. When they invest time (or a lot of money) to something, they create an emotional connection, especially if that was a choice and not something imposed on it. It is choosing one thing about the other that leads to narratives about why you have done a certain thing, something that is usually connected to your self-image.

There are a number of cognitive trends that converge to create this behavior. This assignment effect appears when you feel that the things you have are superior to things you don't have. Another bias is the fallacy of irrecoverable costs. This happens when you spend time or money on something you don't want to have or don't want to do, but you can't avoid. For example, imagine that you spent time studying Rust. You will be "hooked" on the idea that given the time spent in this, it is better to defend the language, even if you imagine that it is not for all things.

To combat post-decisional dissonance, the feeling that you committed to one option when the other option could have been better, you strive to feel justified as to what you selected to reduce the anxiety created when questioning himself. All this forms a gigantic group of neurological associations, emotions, details of self-image and trends around the things you have.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#158

Post by dralley »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #145
dralley wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person who called him out for that made some testy social media comments of her own this morning. Personally, seeing > Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, [...] written unironically, on social media, immediately after that person wrote @marcan > and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner: fuc…

> Maybe don't make comments like that on social media if you want to criticize people for leaning on social media in kernel disputes. This seems like a tu quoque fallacy. The feedback is either applicable or not, regardless of who said it. They're absolutely correct that Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic . Even if there is hypocrisy (whether judged by you personally or someone else), it woul…

Of course it doesn't invalidate the point, but it's hard to blame being so exasperated by the incredible hypocrisy that you ragequit at that point.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#159

Post by ChocolateGod »

nozzlegear wrote: post #125
ChocolateGod wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People using Mastodon to promote pile-ons or brigading? No, never! That's actually one reason I don't use Mastodon, it's extremely common. Isn't this the guy that blocked HackerNews links to the Asahi Linux homepage because the moderators wouldn't do his bidding?

I don't know anything about him, but it seems like he has a pretty negative view of Reddit users as well: > Added some clarifications in bold, because Reddit users having enough reading comprehension to understand what Christoph said and why it's exactly* what I described with other words is apparently a Lv.100 impossible challenge boss.* https://web.archive.org/web/20250206022420/https://social.tr...

An Intel employee in a reply makes a extremely good point that I think everyone these days needs to follow

> And if you're wondering why you didn't realize this: It's impossible to change people by telling them they're wrong. What does tend to work is explaining different perspectives, so that they can figure it out themselves. And sometimes that's just way too subtle to ever register.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#160

Post by dingi »

Rust or not, mixing two different languages within a single project is a sure fire way for a maintenance nightmare. Specially for a large project like Linux. I sincerely don’t want something like that happening to the Linux kernel. Just let it die with C. However it may seem improbable, writing a kernel from scratch is the way to go for new wanna be system programming languages.
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