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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#141

Post by pjmlp »

p_l wrote: post #130
pjmlp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most UNIX systems that were not implemented in C, and thus lacked the symbiotic relationship, never survived in the market, sadly. There have been UNIX systems implemented, Pascal, Ada, Modula-2, Modula-3, as the most relevant ones. All gone. Also note that POSIX/UNIX certification requires a C compiler presence.

Linux kernel is also one of the few that do not use C ABI as entry point for user programs at all. As for C compiler presence in POSIX, only existence of C-accessible APIs with specific structure are mandated, C compiler is optional just like Fortran runtime and compiler are.

Are you sure?

https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/nframe.html

https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2018edition...

https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/015967575/toc.htm

And copying this from UNIX 03, the most widespread certification,

"A single configuration of the system shall meet all of the conformance requirements defined in the following mandatory Product Standards:

    Internationalized System Calls and Libraries Extended V3

    Commands and Utilities V4

    C Language V2

    Internationalized Terminal Interfaces
The product must be registered as conformant to the Product Standards prior to, or concurrent with, the UNIX 03 Product Standard registration."

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#142

Post by pjmlp »

Narishma wrote: post #138
pjmlp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most UNIX systems that were not implemented in C, and thus lacked the symbiotic relationship, never survived in the market, sadly. There have been UNIX systems implemented, Pascal, Ada, Modula-2, Modula-3, as the most relevant ones. All gone. Also note that POSIX/UNIX certification requires a C compiler presence.

I don't think you can conclude anything from that since a ton of UNIX systems implemented in C are also dead.

C was created to rewrite UNIX from its original Assembly implementation, naturally it is a symbiotic relationship not shared by other languages.

Note that many folks even forget that C++ was equally developed on the same Bell Labs group, and is probably one of the first examples of guest languages, making their best to fit into the platform, taking advantage of the ecosystem with almost zero friction, but never being able to control where the platform goes.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#143

Post by bmicraft »

Cumpiler69 wrote: post #6
coldtea wrote: post #3

Martin has worked hard on Asahi, but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes. I'd give this to Linus.

>but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes It's easier to name the major Linux FOSS projects that DON'T have drama and virtue signaling than the ones with. If you read the Github comments on System-D, GNOME, etc, it's like watching children bickering on Sega VS Nintendo. Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws.

It's called systemd, all lowercase, no punctuation :)

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#144

Post by threatofrain »

nicce wrote: post #67
duxup wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing that this is or isn't a problem but I think the statement "using social pressure to influence decisions" is so general that it could apply to just any discussion. That's kinda what discussion is. Granted there are acceptable methods within that, and not acceptable.

Martin has a habit of polarizing and aggregating discussions too much. It is not healthy at all. Linus is definitely correct, especially since he has the history of doing the same and he has tried to fix it. Imagine if the discussion would have started with an article like this. Patch probably would be merged already: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1006805/f75d238e25728afe/

Very doubtful. The maintainer was clear and nothing in there is sufficient to address his criticism: polyglot is unmaintainable and Rust people should write a whole new OS as a separate effort.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#145

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

dralley wrote: post #117
ndiddy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tweet he got called out for on the thread was "Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect. Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down."

The person who called him out for that made some testy social media comments of her own this morning. Personally, seeing > Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, [...] written unironically, on social media, immediately after that person wrote @marcan > and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner: fuc…

> Maybe don't make comments like that on social media if you want to criticize people for leaning on social media in kernel disputes.

This seems like a tu quoque fallacy. The feedback is either applicable or not, regardless of who said it. They're absolutely correct that Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic.

Even if there is hypocrisy (whether judged by you personally or someone else), it wouldn't invalidate the point.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#146

Post by dearing »

Philpax wrote: post #104
cataphract wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of anaphoras. And he's not just abrasive He's a troublemaker. Seriously, code of conduct violation? It was perfectly clear what Hellwig meant by "cancer".

What is the interpretation of "cancer" in this context that isn't rude, offensive, or hostile to the R4L project?

Mixing codebases in the Linux core.

I think the conversation is more about people equating R4L as validation for rust or even themselves.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#147

Post by aleph_minus_one »

zoogeny wrote: post #133
ziddoap wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Starting to think it's not just a coincidence. Is your theory that rust makes people dramatic? Or that dramatic people like rust? What other options are there, if not coincidence?

I would argue the second. I think it is a human trait to like to win arguments. In some card games, there is a thing called a trump card [1]. The trump card has this special ability to beat all other cards. Rust has a kind of trump card: memory safety. If you get in an argument about code it is often possible to maneuver the argument in the direction of memory safety at which point the Rust advocate gets to default w…

This perspective just shifts the problem one meta-layer up: one side (Rust advocates) considers compiler-enforced memory safety to be a trump card, while the other side does not. So side A is "right" because they have the trump card who they played, but side B is also "right" in that they don't consider the stupid card that side A played to be a trump. The rest is drama.

Thus, instead of drama, we get meta-drama, i.e. nothing has changed.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#148

Post by yarosh »

1. I do believe that Rust type system needs to be reworked, so all the drama around it is needlessly bloated. We have RustBelt, RustHornBelt and myriads ways of converting HIR/THIR/MIR to CoQ, for better or worse, but no MLIR support for rust codegen whatsoever. Rust is temporary, we'll get a simpler and better Lang further down the road.

2. The upstream fight had always followed the Cash Flow. If you have so called "problems" you either act yourself, or let other people do something about it, the way it won't result in more long-term issues. Deliberate Detraction IS a Sign of Corruption and Abuse of Power.

3. An ambiguous Point of Conflict may not be Conflict at all, but just an outcome of the Lack of Proper Communication and Transparency. Detraction is Accountable, social dynamics and social incline with explicit or implicit motives is Accountable as well. The lack of Effective Code of Conduct, and absence of Proper Punitive Action, for everyone, will cause Authoritarianism (or just Genocide of Engineering Thought).

I do feel bad about the state of Linux Kernel development, but we'll have either to move on, and learn from This Mistake, or do something about it.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#149

Post by wolvesechoes »

Cumpiler69 wrote: post #6
coldtea wrote: post #3

Martin has worked hard on Asahi, but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes. I'd give this to Linus.

>but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes It's easier to name the major Linux FOSS projects that DON'T have drama and virtue signaling than the ones with. If you read the Github comments on System-D, GNOME, etc, it's like watching children bickering on Sega VS Nintendo. Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws.

"Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws."

Hell no. FOSS communities, as other spaces created by permanently online individuals, definitely have higher-than-average number of mentally unhinged snowflakes.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#150

Post by seba_dos1 »

busterarm wrote: post #57
mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

Up until the point that he tried to leverage social media to get his way in a kernel maintainer dispute? That's just fundamentally not acceptable. Linus was right to reprimand him for the suggestion.

I don't think there's "the point" when it was pretty much modus operandi for years.
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