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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#261

Post by [deleted] »

thrance wrote: post #225
ookblah wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

I don't believe in this "natural stupidity" theory, many well-educated people voted red. Fascism is not a natural state of mind, it is carefully and relentlessly cultivated over years by a giant propaganda machine, at the hands of the capital class who stands to benefit the most from the current situation. This is no coincidence that Trump's cabinet is the most billionaire-friendly ever. Total deregulation of busines…

[deleted]

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#262

Post by latentcall »

aa-jv wrote: post #202
labster wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, cynicism is the only rational reaction now. Lots of people died from covid and our poor government response, but Trump got a majority because eggs are too expensive.

[flagged]

I agree with this, I don’t think it was the only reason but it’s a big one. When people point out what Trump said or plans to do I want to remind people it’s not like we had a real choice this election. It’s right wing or far right wing.

Both parties are completely beholden to AIPAC it’s disgusting.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#263

Post by wiether »

yodsanklai wrote: post #190
noduerme wrote: post #73

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

In France, I remember we read several classic allegories on that theme at schools. Rhinoceros by Ionesco (even watched it in the theater as a school trip), also The Plague (Albert Camus). I didn't think much of it when I was a teenager, but I'm looking at them on the light of these recent events. Especially Rhinoceros on ideological contagion.

Yes we did, but I think that the people who needed it the most, were the ones who either didn't had to read it (the ones not in a "lycée général") or whent through because it was required but didn't tried to understand the meaning.

More broadly, as teenagers, most of us didn't had the maturity to truely grasp the meaning ; and the ones who did probably already where sensitive enough to don't fall in the same traps.

In the hundreds of people I crossed path with during my school time, I don't remember a single one who was actually enlightened by things in the program. The only ones who had kind of a shift from their original mindset did that outside of school or because of a teacher who went out of their way (and of the official program) to explain things.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#264

Post by Hikikomori »

ashirusnw wrote: post #174
throw310822 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's missing the point. What hotels, casinos and apartments were promised to the Biden administration to flood Israel with money and weapons to flatten the Gaza strip into rubble and kill and maim hundreds of thousands? It's not important what leverage Israel has used to make yet another US president do exactly what they want, contrary to any idea of justice, international law, basic humanity and common sense.…

[flagged]

How is the response to Oct 7 a defensive action? Using block sized bombs to take out one terrorist minutes after shooting a missile and has already left the scene when smaller munitions from drones can do the job is defensive? The military threat of Hama' s is a few RPGs that have barely injured anyone since the war started.

How does Israel even know the ratio, they're not counting deaths.

All Hamas wanted from the beginning to release hostages was for Israel to do the same. Something they've now done anyway so the entire war and all civilian suffering was unnecessary.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#265

Post by kzrdude »

joakimbr wrote: post #186
_kava wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, what would these protests do? Serious question. Let say you manage to achieve the unthinkable and bring a huge amount of people on the street, heck let say you are so successful that you also get a full on national strike going, what then? Do you think it would affect those in charge right now? He would not care. He is already ruining the US economy and alliances. Why would he care if some people he does no…

A successful protest with a large turnout shows people that they are not alone with these opinions. This instills confidence so that they dare to act "rightfully" later on.

Yes. It's about the threshold to hold an opinion and to act. Different people have different thresholds for how much they dare to break from the status quo. With widespread protests we change the range of standpoints people feel comfortable to take.

Just like, the comparison is relevant, the public display of nazi symbols changes the range of nazi opinions that some people are comfortable expressing..

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#266

Post by suraci »

eigart wrote: post #219
aa-jv wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Seeing your posts hours after Trump launched a plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza is quite the sight. You’re like the black knight from Monty python. Edit: I welcome the pushback on this post. The message I meant to convey is that of two evils. Yelling at the losing candidate does nothing for Gaza. It alienates even people who care (but I’m not perfect). I apologize for the divisive nature of my post.

is this mean american must select one from two genocide participant to support?

can this topic be negotiatable? like migrants and abortion, one party supports it, one party againsts it, let people choose which party to vote for

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#267

Post by suraci »

sfn42 wrote: post #226
aa-jv wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Gaza has a population of over 2 million people, and according to Wikipedia the civilian death toll has been under 50,000. I'm not saying that's not terrible, of course it is. But I'm pretty sure that if Israel wanted to commit genocide there would be a lot more.

> if Israel wanted to commit genocide

thank you, israel

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#268

Post by bregma »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #241
aa-jv wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Trump got a majority because the prior majority political party was literally participating in genocide, which was on display for the entire world to see. Is the argument here that people vote based on what the prior party was up to, while completely ignoring whether the new party will do less or more of the same action? Because that's really depressing if it's true.

Most votes are cast against something, not for something. That's why negative ads work, no matter how annoying and insulting they are.

Most of the Americans I've spoken with who acknowledge voting for Trump said they did so either because they were against abortion or because the were against the great replacement. My sample is small though and may not be significant but there is a similar pattern in my country.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#269

Post by Hikikomori »

MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #220
twixfel wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the US is uniquely fucked, really. At least the previous global hegemon fought two world wars to lose its place. The US is basically committing geopolitical suicide at the top of its powers because of gender neutral toilets and the price of eggs. A rather pathetic country and people, sadly.

Triggered. If we are pathetic, then look forward to our enlightened successors. I don't know what will happen in American politics, nor what effect it will have on the world or the permanence of those effects, but there are demagogues everywhere, America is not exceptional.

I look forward our new Chinese overlords.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#270

Post by pjc50 »

myrmidon wrote: post #195
labster wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, cynicism is the only rational reaction now. Lots of people died from covid and our poor government response, but Trump got a majority because eggs are too expensive.

> Trump got a majority because eggs are too expensive. I think this trivializes the outcome in a dangerous way. From my view as an outside observer, these were all big factors: - Bad handling of the candidate selection for the democrats (switching to Harris too late) - Having an impossible platform for a lot of single issue voters (mainly: people that want immigration reduced, but also firearm availability) - Thoroug…

> I also believe that the media smear campaign depicting Biden as completely senile was really effective (and a bit ridiculous considering the age of his replacement). Another very effective strategy in riling up their base was the "democrats want to transgenderize all the children" (exaggerated).

I'm not sure what they could actually do about these; if the media (or their owners) want to lean heavily on the scale, this is always going to be a problem. We see the same thing in the UK. You can't fight a thing that people have made up in their heads with facts.

(I note that there is a platform split on H1-B between Trump and Musk, but that doesn't seem to have been a problem for them)

> Bad handling of the candidate selection for the democrats (switching to Harris too late)

Many of the democrats are simply too old. Nancy Pelosi, world's greatest stock trader, is 84. Feinstein died in office at 90. There's an entire missing generation, the party should be averaging 50-65. People are supporting them because there's no alternative, which is .. not durable.

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