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Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

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Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#251

Post by graemep »

varjag wrote: post #236
graemep wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe runs its space programme Different Europe. The ESA is is not an EU agency so it runs by its own rules, its members include several non-EU countries, it has a non-European "cooperating state" and its funding is direct from member states. https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Co...

Which are the non-member states still? Is that post Brexit UK and Norway (the EEA member)?

Full details here: https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Co...

Also, not all EU states are ESA member states.

Canada is on the ESA governing council, and takes part in projects.

In the context of Eu grants being discussed in this thread, its financing arrangements are very different from those, so its irrelevant to discussing the effectiveness or not of those.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#252

Post by tmnvdb »

Cumpiler69 wrote: post #213
tmnvdb wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because America has the best private capital and startup ecosystem in the world it has a good chance of picking the big winners. There is no corresponding European ecosystem, only a bunch of small national ones. In fact, European investors are not betting on EU startups because they are unlikely to be able to scale to beat US and Chinese competitors due to lack of market and capital market scale.

Europe has lower cost of living and lower wages so EU Investors don't need US levels of money to compete.

Developers are cheaper but not a lot, and regulatory costs are higher - the difference in the end in not huge. Plus: if you want to win a global market you need global talent at global wages. You need a lot of private capital and Europe does not have any.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#253

Post by VagabundoP »

varjag wrote: post #230
VagabundoP wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the bar to entry for LLM is far far lower. CERN is a scientific marvel.

They had to design a reference standard quality nanovoltmeter because HP/Agilent could not keep up with volume & cost. And it was only one among scores of side quests. https://hackaday.com/2021/02/26/homebrew-metrology-the-cern-...

The fallout from CERN is incredible. It really shows what's possible with these kinds of multiple decade projects.

Reminds me of the Civilisation Wonders you could build.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#254

Post by beernet »

The actual top EU AI labs like Mistral, Black Forest Labs, or Stability AI are nowhere to be seen. Same goes for potent, established companies like SAP, Schwarz Group and the like. They likely made the right move here as this is doomed to fail, as correctly elaborated by the top comments.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#255

Post by lxgr »

closewith wrote: post #186
throwaway473825 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all satellite systems are equal: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-20/russia-s-... >The US constellation isn’t as accurate as the newer networks, said Roberts, the Sydney-based professor. “It used to be GPS was out in front,” he said. Now, though, the EU’s Galileo is in the lead, with China’s BeiDou close behind, he said. It's basically Galileo > BeiDou > GPS >>> GLONASS.

That would be expected for a system launched 33 years later, but in Galileo and GPS are identical for civilian use (and obviously no-one knows the military capabilities of Block III satellites as that's undisclosed). GPS+Gailleo is the current SOTA, but it's nonsense to say Galileo is "best".

Galileo has signal authentication, GPS doesn't. In a world where GNSS spoofing is increasingly becoming a hazard to aviation and other applications, that's arguably critical.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#256

Post by lxgr »

closewith wrote: post #204
e2le wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>enabled per language in Settings. Do they? I tried opening a French government site[1] and received the Firefox pop-up offering to translate the page. I did not have to enable anything in settings neither is the French language model downloaded. It seems translations are enabled by default. [1]: https://www.elysee.fr/

I stand corrected on this point, the language packs now auto-download. It's still a niche feature only partially built by a Horizon project (it was almost entirely built by commercial entities - MS and Mozilla) in a niche browser. It's an indictment of the Horizon programme that this is considered the pre-eminent success story.

You really can't win with some people.

If the EU invests into research and development of a feature that a US tech company already offers (as a proprietary, closed-source service), it's needless duplication and a futile effort in catching up.

Yet if it doesn't, that's admitting defeat in the face of competitors and the wrong move as well.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#257

Post by machiaweliczny »

Do they have something tangible now? At least PWr (from Poland) have fine tuned Mistral and a lot of language data AFAIK - https://bielik.ai/

Anyway I think some novel training method is needed and I’m with Yann on this. They could luck into good idea but with this budget chances are < 1%

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#258

Post by DocTomoe »

bayindirh wrote: post #67
isoprophlex wrote: post #57

I'm HIGHLY sceptical. The academics will love it, because they get money. But look at that list of parties involved. More than twenty parties supplying people; none of them will have this initiative on the top of their list of loyalties and priorities. Meaning, everyone will talk, noone will take charge, some millions change hands and we continue with business as usual. Instead this should have been a single new non-…

I can see that you're unfamiliar with how EU grants and how these project collections work, but I don't have much time to address this with great detail. As a person who's in this type of projects for a long time, what I can say is "it works", because people do not compete with each other, but will build it together. What I can say is, if they have came this far, there's already plans about what to do, and how to do,…

When has it ever worked?

Remember the EU Search Engine project, Quaero, and its equally failed successor, Theseus? No? I thought so.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#259

Post by machiaweliczny »

tmnvdb wrote: post #252
Cumpiler69 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has lower cost of living and lower wages so EU Investors don't need US levels of money to compete.

Developers are cheaper but not a lot, and regulatory costs are higher - the difference in the end in not huge. Plus: if you want to win a global market you need global talent at global wages. You need a lot of private capital and Europe does not have any.

EU has enough capital it just works on US market cause there no unified capital market in EU. If Trump hits EU with tariffs I hope this changes.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#260

Post by DocTomoe »

varjag wrote: post #215
Xelbair wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe honestly had pretty... mid track record for space program. should i bring up Galileo and how many years it took?

Is Galileo up there or it is just the PDFs and the red tape orbiting?

If that is your metric, look up "ESA Hermes".

It was basically Dreamchaser, only in the 1980s, and cancelled.

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