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Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

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Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#211

Post by closewith »

varjag wrote: post #207
closewith wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about Huygens? That was launched on a Titan IV in 1997(!) and landed in 2005! In 1997, the EU was a global economic and scientific powerhouse. We're talking about the ossification in the last 15-20 years that has not only allowed the US to leapfrog Europe as the largest economy, but China too. You are bordering on delusional with these comments.

Was that literally you who complained that Galileo was too new? Is Huygens too old now? Well take your pick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:European_Space_Agency...

I think it's clear you're commenting in bad faith now, as you aren't open to reasonable arguments. I'll leave you at it.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#212

Post by e2le »

Vinnl wrote: post #150
closewith wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7 languages and a feature nobody to a rounding error uses? No, I don't consider that to be a research, economic, or technical success. Honestly, I'm not sure if you posted this is support of Horizon or against? The Horizon budget for 2021-2027 is €95.5 billion or ~€15 billion per annum. If a headline "success" is an unfinished implementation of translation in Firefox of a translation engine (Marian) built by the Micr…

I don't have the numbers at hand or know if they're even public somewhere, but telemetry shows that Firefox Translations is used a lot . Definitely on the list of successful new Firefox features. (I'm a Mozilla employee, but I have not worked on Firefox Translations.)

>I don't have the numbers at hand

Is this it?

https://glam.telemetry.mozilla.org/fog/probe/translations_re...*

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#213

Post by Cumpiler69 »

tmnvdb wrote: post #206
Cumpiler69 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because Europe does not have enough money. They seem to have enough to send overseas and to spend on illegal economic migrants. >Private sector often does not fund projects like these as they have bad return on investment. Then why does the private sector in the US fund projects like these?

Because America has the best private capital and startup ecosystem in the world it has a good chance of picking the big winners. There is no corresponding European ecosystem, only a bunch of small national ones. In fact, European investors are not betting on EU startups because they are unlikely to be able to scale to beat US and Chinese competitors due to lack of market and capital market scale.

Europe has lower cost of living and lower wages so EU Investors don't need US levels of money to compete.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#214

Post by varjag »

closewith wrote: post #211
varjag wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was that literally you who complained that Galileo was too new? Is Huygens too old now? Well take your pick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:European_Space_Agency...

I think it's clear you're commenting in bad faith now, as you aren't open to reasonable arguments. I'll leave you at it.

Sorry that you feel this way but saying that EU can't complete complex projects is not a reasonable argument.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#215

Post by varjag »

Xelbair wrote: post #187
varjag wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe runs its space programme in this way and so far it has pretty good track record. There are more ways to build stuff than the worship of personality.

Europe honestly had pretty... mid track record for space program. should i bring up Galileo and how many years it took?

Is Galileo up there or it is just the PDFs and the red tape orbiting?

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#216

Post by closewith »

rickdeckard wrote: post #208
badlogic wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has lived through Eurostar and Horizon 2020, and who has participated as both a researcher and corporate partner, I can say: it does not work. Unless by work you mean "successfully passed the post-project review by non-experts based on a bunch of slides" Point at a single project of this sort that had any tangible output that's still in use.

> Point at a single project of this sort that had any tangible output that's still in use. Not sure what is your limiting factor (just universities + industry consortiums or explicit IT projects?). Graphene Flagship might be an example, with their research on Graphene they contributed to the foundation of more efficient batteries and solar panels, innovation in automotive and commercial products and so on. Clean Sky…

Graphene Flagship was an irredeemable disaster. €1 B pumped into research and commercialisation and the result is a DOA graphene industry in the EU, left in the dust by China and the US.

Clean Sky Joint Undertaking was also a disaster that missed all its targets.

As stated elsewhere, CERN is a cautionary tale - the LHC is a vestige of a time when Europe was an economic and scientific powerhouse. If the last 15-20 years we have become an also-ran to the US and China.

There's an endless list of these soft failed Horizon projects:

* Human Brain Project * European Processor Initiative * Innovative Medicines Initiative * LIGHTest * The Once-Only Principle Project * OpenAIRE * Quantum Flagship

And on and on. No results. No ROI.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#218

Post by sunshine-o »

badlogic wrote: post #199
bayindirh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that you're unfamiliar with how EU grants and how these project collections work, but I don't have much time to address this with great detail. As a person who's in this type of projects for a long time, what I can say is "it works", because people do not compete with each other, but will build it together. What I can say is, if they have came this far, there's already plans about what to do, and how to do,…

As someone who has lived through Eurostar and Horizon 2020, and who has participated as both a researcher and corporate partner, I can say: it does not work. Unless by work you mean "successfully passed the post-project review by non-experts based on a bunch of slides" Point at a single project of this sort that had any tangible output that's still in use.

I once registered as an "expert" on those EU related websites in the hope to be invited to an event where I could network.

Next thing I know one of those Horizon 2020 project send me 20 proposals to evaluate and select by next week. Each of them was 50-100 pages long, mostly BS.

I couldn't really do any real due diligence and I don't believe anybody did any on me. So just create register fake domain names to get a fake corporate email addresses, create a fake LinkedIn profiles and you can have a significant weight in the selection process for grants. It is that simple.

I remember it made me feel sick in my stomach to think that the money that would be given through my evaluation was most likely equivalent to one year of tax revenue from a random honest small business.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#219

Post by VagabundoP »

varjag wrote: post #184
closewith wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The LHC is comparably complex to LLMs and CERN is a cautionary tale. The web was invented there and yet the vast majority of the subsequent innovation and economic benefit coalesced in the US because the European countries were culturally unable to capitalise on it.

LLMs are not "comparably complex" to LHC, they are perhaps 0.1% of the complexity from engineering POV. By any metric, from system design to physical infrastructure to run them.

Yeah the bar to entry for LLM is far far lower.

CERN is a scientific marvel.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#220

Post by sofixa »

krallistic wrote: post #106
bayindirh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a take that can only come from someone who is dependent on Horizon. No, I'm not dependent on Horizon Programme. I just look at what we did, the outcomes, and talk from that point. Maybe our sphere is one of the ones which deliver. I can't see the whole thing, it's too big to observe. Even if we're in the 5% which delivers, which is same with the startup scene, which is loudly applauded because it's an incre…

Start-ups deliver something much more complicated/different than these research projects. If the whole research project at the end actually delivers a somewhat coherent prototype, it's seen as a huge success. Most start-ups start with a proof-of-concept prototype to transform it into an economically viable product. So, comparing these success rates does not make sense. Multiple research groups can deliver rough proto…

> Most start-ups start with a proof-of-concept prototype to transform it into an economically viable product.

And most fail utterly at even delivering a viable product, let alone an economically viable one.,

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