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El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

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Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#231

Post by carlosjobim »

threeseed wrote: post #206
carlosjobim wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you say to the victims of these gangs?

This is just an intellectually lazy way to dismiss any criticism of policies. You can care deeply about victims and not believe in a surveillance state or arresting people simply because they look a certain way. History has shown it’s a slippery slope that ends up hurting everyone.

A gang tattoo is a uniform. If you wear the uniform of an enemy soldier anywhere in the world, you will probably get arrested or worse.

> History has shown it’s a slippery slope that ends up hurting everyone.

You don't need to look far back into history when you can look at the real world right now. When things are so bad that they can't get worse, there's no point of arguing about a slippery slope.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#232

Post by chungy »

redundantly wrote: post #230
tapoxi wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're not supposed to hold legal tender, by design you're supposed to spend it.

gestures at all of the billionaires

I dare you to come up with a single example of someone that has a billion dollars in liquid assets. They probably don't exist: "billionaries" are worth billions on paper, thanks to stocks, investments, real estate holdings, etc.

All in all, billionaires are a bad example of holding legal tender, because that just doesn't happen.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#233

Post by throwaway519 »

portaouflop wrote: post #188

IMF gave them 1.4 billion to abandon the “experiment”: > The IMF made this a condition for a loan of 1.4 billion US dollars (1.35 billion euros). In December of last year, the IMF reached an agreement with President Nayib Bukele’s government on the loan of the stated amount to strengthen the country’s “fiscal sustainability” and mitigate the “risks associated with Bitcoin,” as it was described. —- I dislike cryptocur…

They're actually paying to give it up then. That's a hard fail.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#234

Post by bloatedGoat »

desumeku wrote: post #57
block_dagger wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That opinion is not shared by those who think Proof of Stake and no ceiling to supply are bugs vs features.

Those issues are not really relevant when it comes to factors like transaction speeds and the diversity of assets available to transact with, such as stablecoins, as well as DeFi platforms to actually use those assets on.

If all you care about are transaction speeds then use the lightning network. Instant settlement of bitcoin and much lower fees. There are protocols like Cashu [1] that allow you to transact offline anonymously for no fees and settle on the lightning network.

Why do you need "diversity of assets to transact with"? Go to any store in almost any country and they usually accept a single currency. Maybe in some they take local + USD. You're arguing for something the market doesn't seem to care about outside of speculative trading for fiat gains.

And even if you really want stablecoins they've been added to bitcoin via the lightning network and taproot assets. Tether for example can be used via bitcoin [2]. There's a reason Bitcoin makes up well over 50% of the total crypto market.

----

1. https://cashu.space/

2. https://www.coindesk.com/business/2025/01/30/tether-brings-i...

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#235

Post by tonyhart7 »

chungy wrote: post #232
redundantly wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

gestures at all of the billionaires

I dare you to come up with a single example of someone that has a billion dollars in liquid assets. They probably don't exist: "billionaries" are worth billions on paper, thanks to stocks, investments, real estate holdings, etc. All in all, billionaires are a bad example of holding legal tender, because that just doesn't happen.

"I dare you to come up with a single example of someone that has a billion dollars in liquid assets."

royal family kingdom of saudi arabia

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#236

Post by mystified5016 »

aydyn wrote: post #209
codethief wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speculative asset class fails as non-speculative legal tender class. This. Bitcoin proponents often claim that eventually everyone will use Bitcoin for payments ("Finally no more governments or central banks!") and that's why it will increase in value, so everyone should invest in BTC. But this argument is fundamentally flawed: A currency, in order for it to work (in order for people to be able to trust it), needs…

What currency is stable in value? Certainly not the U.S. dollar.

The USD doesn't frequently lose all or nearly all value as we see from cryptocoins. My $10 today will be worth $10 tomorrow barring nuclear war or an apocalypse.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#237

Post by napierzaza »

portaouflop wrote: post #188

IMF gave them 1.4 billion to abandon the “experiment”: > The IMF made this a condition for a loan of 1.4 billion US dollars (1.35 billion euros). In December of last year, the IMF reached an agreement with President Nayib Bukele’s government on the loan of the stated amount to strengthen the country’s “fiscal sustainability” and mitigate the “risks associated with Bitcoin,” as it was described. —- I dislike cryptocur…

[dead]

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#238

Post by kragen »

MaxPock wrote: post #195
sidewndr46 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economically, communism is a great idea. In practice, you get "collectivization" in the Soviet Union that basically starves millions to death

Don't millions starve too in capitalism?

No. No liberal capitalist economy has ever had a famine. By contrast, most communist economies have created major famines, and history's largest famines have all been created by communist economies, outdoing even colonialism in their death tolls.

These are well-known historical facts.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#239

Post by kragen »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #63
desumeku wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did this to receive a loan from the IMF. The IMF was withholding the loan because of BTC and would not disburse it until they got rid of its status as legal tender.

Fair demand by the IMF. Presumably they require their loan to be repaid in fiat because of their internal charter. If Bitcoin adoption eventually removes El Salvador's ability to issue fiat, their loan can't be repaid.

The IMF will definitely not accept repayment in El Salvador's own fiat currency! That would be obviously stupid of them.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#240

Post by desumeku »

bloatedGoat wrote: post #234
desumeku wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those issues are not really relevant when it comes to factors like transaction speeds and the diversity of assets available to transact with, such as stablecoins, as well as DeFi platforms to actually use those assets on.

If all you care about are transaction speeds then use the lightning network. Instant settlement of bitcoin and much lower fees. There are protocols like Cashu [1] that allow you to transact offline anonymously for no fees and settle on the lightning network. Why do you need "diversity of assets to transact with"? Go to any store in almost any country and they usually accept a single currency. Maybe in some they take…

You "can" do all these things on BTC. Almost nobody does. All of Tether & USDC usage takes place on other blockchains. The lightning network is notoriously tricky to use and isn't trustless. A diversity of assets enables things like PAXG, an ERC-20 token backed fully by real-world gold, as well as things like tokenized stocks, bonds, and t-bills, the last already existing, and the former surely coming in the near future.

Additionally BTC isn't "over 50% of the market", it's over 50% of the market capitalization, which is a huge difference. BTC doesn't have the raw TX speed to make up 50% of actual market activity.

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