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El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

ticotimes.net

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Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#161

Post by throwaway314155 »

yreg wrote: post #84
the_af wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Salvadorans, with the exception of a few, never embraced Bukele’s initiative, who enjoys enormous popularity for his war against gangs, which dropped homicides to historic lows in El Salvador. A recent survey by the Central American University (UCA) revealed that 92% of Salvadorans did not use bitcoin in their transactions in 2024. I would say this points to an actual failed experiment, if true.

8% is quite a lot though.

This "everything's going great as long as you squint hard enough" stuff is why people don't give cryptocurrency proponents the time of day. At some point admitting you've lost actually better preserves your ability to be heard at the next debate.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#162

Post by desumeku »

nadermx wrote: post #153
LAMike wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more rare than gold and getting more rare every 4 years. What is the current supply of gold and what will it be in 2050?

Gold has a utility, used in a large swath of electronics. Can always be sold to make something. Bitcoin can only be sold if there is a fiat currency trading in it

Electronics didn't exist for the thousands of years that gold was used as currency. The fact is, it only has most of the value that it does because it was rare, malleable, particularly shiny, and because metallism was simply the easiest way (or at least one of the easiest ways) to invent the concept of currency and a monetary system.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#163

Post by shipp02 »

ggm wrote: post #91
jaggederest wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you don't really own land, you just rent it for a very long term from the government. This is probably economically a good idea, absent something like georgist land taxes. It eliminates some or all of the incentive to speculate in land, which is of course the whole problem El Salvador ran into with bitcoin as currency.

It hasn't entirely stopped rents in HK being untenably high, for many people. It has rent controls, but the system permits some very untenable outcomes which if left unchecked would re-create Kowloon Walled City. So whilst politically I agree, practically I am unsure there is no land speculation: A waterfront view remains valuable in and of itself, no matter what.

Land in HK is weird. The lease thing is true but there are massive national parks that have nothing built at all.

The buildings that do exist are ~50 stories even though that's not optimal because of the typhoon situation. So constructive cost is high because government does not release enough land for development.

The rents are high because someone wants it that way. It's not a land scarcity problem IMO.

Also the government and the upcoming merge with China is strange in itself.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#164

Post by mikepurvis »

codethief wrote: post #152
ggm wrote: post #4

Speculative asset class fails as non-speculative legal tender class. If king for the day with a sovereign wealth fund I wouldn't forbid investment choices like this on risk grounds, I mean you need risk assets as well as boring ones, right? But I have problems with the moral quality: it's like state investing in the casino business. Monaco? works fine. Anywhere else? It's got problems. Like a lot of people, I probabl…

> Speculative asset class fails as non-speculative legal tender class. This. Bitcoin proponents often claim that eventually everyone will use Bitcoin for payments ("Finally no more governments or central banks!") and that's why it will increase in value, so everyone should invest in BTC. But this argument is fundamentally flawed: A currency, in order for it to work (in order for people to be able to trust it), needs…

And quite apart from that fundamental misalignment, sovereign states having some measure of control over their own monetary policy is arguably a pretty good thing.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#165

Post by sidewndr46 »

jaggederest wrote: post #87
Terr_ wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sovereign wealth fund That reminds me of Hong Kong, where I used to live and which maintains a large sovereign wealth fund to ensure its currency is pegged to the US dollar. While various US think tanks ranked it well on their checklists of "economic freedom", they tended to gloss over the rest of the recipe that made it work. Not just the huge sovereign wealth fund, but also how half the housing is government-run…

> you don't really own land, you just rent it for a very long term from the government. This is probably economically a good idea, absent something like georgist land taxes. It eliminates some or all of the incentive to speculate in land, which is of course the whole problem El Salvador ran into with bitcoin as currency.

Economically, communism is a great idea. In practice, you get "collectivization" in the Soviet Union that basically starves millions to death

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#166

Post by mvdtnz »

threeseed wrote: post #102
starspangled wrote: post #73

It's interesting and nice to see how progressive and creative El Salvador has been. Some failures are perfectly understandable when one is willing to try new things. Their approach to crime is another thing that comes to mind that was lambasted and ridiculed by the "international community" and "experts". Yet in the space of a single decade they went from murder capital of the world to safer than New Zealand (in term…

> nice to see how progressive and creative El Salvador has been Alright so let's have a look at these progressive/creative approaches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_El_Salvador (a) Mass arrests of anyone who merely had a gang tattoo, (b) Jailing of children, (c) Security cameras everywhere, (d) Inhumane treatment of prisoners. Trashing human rights is always effective but hardly creative nor progressive.

a - gang tattoos mean gang involvement. Let's stop pretending otherwise.

b - I'm not sure what you think you're reading but that article points to the scourge of gangs and their impact on children. I only skimmed it but I couldn't see anything in that article about detaining children.

c - So?

d - Gang members in places like El Salvador victimise communities. They are a scourge. I will not accept the humanizing of them - they are parasites. I absolutely support Bukele's policies to rid the country of them. I hope he keeps going.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#167

Post by verdverm »

desumeku wrote: post #57
block_dagger wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That opinion is not shared by those who think Proof of Stake and no ceiling to supply are bugs vs features.

Those issues are not really relevant when it comes to factors like transaction speeds and the diversity of assets available to transact with, such as stablecoins, as well as DeFi platforms to actually use those assets on.

When most people hear daily usage, they think groceries, bills and paycheck, not day trading on an exchange, defi or centralized.

In this regard, crypto currency is not really a currency that people can use for their daily lives without worry and risk from volatility

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#168

Post by ty6853 »

throwaway314155 wrote: post #150
bawolff wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really how that works. IMF can demand their loan be repaid in whatever currency they want. Its totally normal for international loans to be denominated in a currency other than the recipient's legal tender, particularly for high risk countries (although that is usually bad for the recipient)

They don't want Bitcoin in exchange. Seems entirely reasonable to me given how much the value of cryptocurrency fluctuates with low predictability. They could get paid in it one day and lose half the value the next.

This is why otc tradfi crypto futures are needed. You can buy a train car full of corn a year out trivially on a liquid futures market, regardless if corn prices fluctuate wildly you will pay what was agreed. Listing BTC derivatives would solve the predictability for fixed loan terms.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#169

Post by skybrian »

georgeecollins wrote: post #129
ks2048 wrote: post #33

Do pro-bitcoin people still talk about goals of bitcoin being a currency that people use daily? I don't follow it closely, but that idea seems to have faded and now it's just an asset to buy and hold while it magically goes up forever.

It doesn't have to be "magic" that causes it to go up forever. People need a way to put large amounts of money in places that are difficult for governments to get to and /or easy to move across jurisdictional borders. Think: money launderers, people that are worried their corrupt government will seize their assets, people hiding money from someone they owe like a spouse in a divorce. These all seem to me to be reason…

But that doesn't distinguish Bitcoin from other cryptocurrencies. The thing that distinguishes Bitcoin is fame, pure and simple. Everyone has heard of it.
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